Grafting non dormant wood

[IL847]

I am wondering how well these late grafted, late leaf out branches handle zone5 winter typically down to -20F

[Hillbillyhort]

Exactly,
Late season growth , I would assume, may not properly harden off before winter.
Could be susceptible to winter kill ?
Also , seems the rootstock would be weakened , by removing so much foliage Midsummer.

[MES111]

@IL847 @Hillbillyhort

I am in zone 5 b in NY.

I summer prune my Espaliers through August. Often there is continued new growth in Sept (sometimes alot!) . When the amount of sunshine declines the growth stops and the new growth has plenty of time to go dormant and harden off in October and November and into December in plenty of time for the rigors of January and February.

A June 5 graft produced 17 inches of growth by July 26. By August 30th it probably doubled. I think it hardens off like any other non-grafted growth that grows during that time.

Take a look at the August 30th growth on the pear graft that was done on August 1 at the very end of the video where he points to the plywood he added to the north side to “keep it warm” Growth like that will harden of by December

Mike

[steveb4]

going to try this on my mountain ash with a pear scion next summer. going to try it mid june and see what happens. nothing gained , nothing lost.

[IL847]

@MES111

Take a look at the August 30th growth on the pear graft that was done on August 1 at the very end of the video where he points to the playwood he added to the north sid to “keep it warm” Growth like that will harden of by December

Well, Mike some part if Russia is quite warm zone 6~7. Don’t know which region in Russia the video was made.

[MES111]

@IL847

I understand and, of course, I did not mean to imply that this is something that was going to work across the board for everyone everywhere. But, the August 30 growth is similar to the growth I get on my pears in August September after I prune my pears and these survive. Actually, it’s annoying because I prune to develop fruiting buds and these types often indicate vegetative. Also he is talking about keeping his graft “warm” in August so it pretty much indicates that he is not in the warmest zones.

But regardless, the motivation for this thread was the “wow, my ideas about grafting may not be so sacrosanct” pinballing inside my head and I thought I’d share.

The idea that I could top work some trees in
July was very attractive to me as I try to explore the woods for old abandoned orchards to maybe find something interesting but now I can save stuff I find in summer.

MIke

[oscar]

If it is mainly about “saving” scion varieties you collect in summer, you can also summer T-Bud or Chip bud. You cut of the leaf of the chip. but leave the leaf stalk. Wrap around the leaf stalk.

If the graft heals and “takes” the hormones and sapflow from the rootstock will eject the leaf stalk (it will fall off if you slightly touch it)

This is really useful. Since you can see if the grafts took. Even though they will likely not leaf out that summer. But next spring

The grafting in the video i think has some risks to it. Since pruning the tree to a stump in the summer, will probably weaken it greatly. Likely more so than pruning it to a stump in the winter. Since the tree has not prepared for dormancy yet mid summer. (has not stored carbohydrates in the roots and buds as much as it would at the begining off winter.

[aiden]

Can I refrigerate scionwood from this winter and use them for grafting/budding in the summer?

[MES111]

@oscar

Even though they will likely not leaf out that summer. But next spring

@oscar
That’s the point, exactly. If I have a choice, I would rather not wait till spring to see growth and I was excited about the prospect of seeing this much growth this year. Also, if the June-July (August even) graft fails to take, you can still bud graft and wait to spring, it is a win- win.

@oscar

Likely more so than pruning it to a stump in the winter. Since the tree has not prepared for dormancy yet mid summer. (has not stored carbohydrates in the roots and buds as much as it would at the begining off winter.

With as much growth as shown in the vid, the roots are being fed, even if at a decreased amount. But, then again, the roots will now only have to store enough carbs to support very little top growth.

I had a pear tree that had extensive fireblight and I cut it to a stump (way below the infection) in mid summer with the expectaion of removing the stump within days. I got busy with other things and the tree said “Whoa, hold on a minute” and started to push out new growth from"invisible" but obviously latent buds on the trunk. So there was plenty of energy in those roots to push the new growth from a beheading without attaching a scion that might “call” for sap flow.

I am not speking as a scientist, so I am just stating what seems like a common sense explanation of what hapenned. Sort of my anthropomorphic musings.

Mike

[MES111]

@aiden
Yes that is the common “standard” way of storing scion from winter cutting to spring/summer grafting

Mike

[aiden]

That’s what I thought, but I wanted to make sure that my memory was correct since people were only talking about all of the other ways one could do it…I guess that’s the point of this thread.

[MES111]

@oscar

Or completly headed the tree it might have grown more in year of grafting.

@oscar

I missed this little part in my first readig of your post. I would think that completely heading the tree makes a huge difference. I have found that any graft that I have made at any time of the year grows much better if it is the highest growing thing on the tree. Whenever I grafted onto a lower scaffold it alsways grew slowly and I would try strategic notching to help it along. So I suspect that late season grafting on a headed tree would give more growth than if other growth, which would call on tree resources, was left on the tree.

Mike

[oscar]

@aiden
Yes you can store scion wood in the fridge.
It’s best to put the fridge as cool as possible. (usualy 1 or 2 degree celcius. or just above freezing)

Also keep in mind that not only temperature wakes up the buds on the scions. But also ethylene gas. This is produced by some fruits/vegs ripening. And thus could leaf out your scions in the fridge.

I would advise to store scions in a fridge without ethylene gas producing produce. Or put it in multiple thick plastic (freezer) bags.

[murky]

I’ve grafted dormant scions in September. I wouldn’t recommend it, but most took and grew, and some survived the winter.

[danchappell]

I posted my experience about this topic some years ago. The buds didn’t push until the following spring and the damage to the scions turned out to be from earwigs not snails & slugs.

2017 Grafting Thread

In late summer probably August or September I was trimming one of my Mirabelle plums and decided to experiment with some grafting. I removed the leaves from the actively growing Mirabelle wood and grafted the scions to some suckers of a wild plum tree that I had cut down in spring. A couple were cleft grafts and a couple were saddle grafts with a grafting tool. Over the fall and winter the scions did not grow but they also did not appear to be dead. It seems that some of the grafts had healed …

[candyflipper]

I graft this way for a long time and it works weather its spring or summer.

[dfwinterstein]

Note that those of us who live in the south and grow subtropical and tropical varieties of necessity graft
when plants have leaves, meaning they are not completely dormant. Over the years we learn which times are best and which tricks to use. For example, mangos graft best in early summer. Scions are prepared by stripping off leaves two weeks before cutting from parent tree. This causes buds to expand and prepare to grow.

[downunder]

Side veneer and lateral bark grafts are routinely done here (Australia) in spring/summer. They will usually leaf out within 3-6 weeks post grafting. The stock is cut back to graft site at 2 weeks (occasionally a short piece is left to support the new growth from the scion). The scion usually straightens up with time and 1-2 years out there is only a slight “bend” at the graft site.Crotch angle is not an issue.

Spring grafting usually involves dormant scions. Mid summer grafting is done with firm scion wood. All types of grafts (including root grafting), and budding are done at this time.Leaf out happens routinely within weeks of the grafting.

With late summer grafting, the buds usually don’t break until the following spring.

In my experience, top working established trees in summer results in more epicormic bud break on the stump that when done at leaf break in spring.

[MES111]

@downunder

results in more epicormic bud break on the stump that when done at leaf break in spring.

@downunder

Does this “epicormic bud break” compete agressively with the new grafts.

My thinking is that I have an established tree, the fruit of which I am not particularly fond of and I want to topwork it. But, I am not sure that I want to consign the variety to a permanent exile.

I was thinking that I could head it completely to top work it with a cultivar I want, but, it might be helpfull to allow the epicormic bud growth to create a branch of the original to grow back so I have some of that cultivar… just to have.
But, not if it would compete too agressively with the graft

Thanx for any insight you might be able to share

Mike

[Masbustelo]

Mike I top worked an old pear tree last year. I got epicormic growth all over the place. I also did some top work grafts. I let the epicormic shoots grow in order to keep the tree viable. The epicormic grafts did out grow the grafts, but the grafts did fine… However I let all the epicormics grow, like a chia pet. If you just wanted to keep one or two, you could easily pick off the others as they appear. This year, on this particular tree, I can graft as many as 20 scions on the growths I’m keeping from last season. (I’m espaliering it.)