You are correct. Thanks for the correction. I removed the erroneous statement from my post.
I would sort of disagree with something GTP wrote:
āPruning practices that open up the canopy to allow sunlight to reach the leaves near the fruit can enhance sugar production.ā
Iāve read research which indicates pruning during the growing season can reduce brix and fruit size. Iām not going to take the trouble to find the research, but I know Iāve read it in the past.
The A.I. chat bot didnāt say specifically say āsummer pruningā but itās implied in itās response.
I āsort ofā disagree with itās response because I think summer pruning can improve brix, but it has to be fairly selective summer pruning. Namely, pruning only those shoots which have no fruit on them. I think if one heads back shoots with fruit on them, it will simply result in less photosynthesis, and less brix, as the research indicated.
To be fair, the Chat bot did say ācanā enhance sugar production, not that it definitely āwouldā enhance sugar production.
But that is what somewhat frustrates me about the Chat bot. Many of the conclusions have too many qualifiers like can, may, etc. Itās almost like reading something a politician wrote.
Chat bot wrote:
āUnlike earlier stages where the fruit is still growing, the final weeks focus more on internal changes, including sugar concentration and the breakdown of acids, rather than increasing the fruitās size.ā
I donāt think this is extremely accurate. I find peaches size up quite a lot the last few weeks before harvest. In fact, I donāt like it when some customers take it upon themselves to go into the orchard and pick peaches. If they pick them a little early, they donāt get that final fruit swell, so I am selling less poundage, plus their eating experience isnāt as good. So itās a lose/lose.
Iāve even noticed if a tree is really loaded with peaches, getting a lot of peaches off the tree the first picking really helps the remaining peaches size up.
So I think Chat bot got that one plain wrong, as I read it.
Lastly, with respect to water, there are some nuances not mentioned. For example, heavy rains a few days before harvest isnāt nearly as detrimental to flavor and brix compared to a heavy rains 10 days before harvest. Heavy rains a few days before harvest will crack fruit, but it still tastes very good, if weāve had dry periods before that. Heavy rains 10 days prior to harvest will generally destroy the flavor of fruit.
All that said, Iām not trying to discredit the Chat bot. I use the Chat bot myself. I think the danger is using it as an authority the same way someone might use peer reviewed research (i.e placing too much confidence in it.)
For example, on a completely different subject, I wanted to know which steel is easier to hand thread 12L14 or 8620. 12L14 is certainly more machinable, but itās also quite a bit harder. Generally harder steels are harder to hand thread and break hand taps more readily.
I couldnāt find anything on the internet regarding my specific question, so I asked the Chat bot. The Chat bot says that 12L14 is easier to hand thread, but I have no idea if the answer is B.S. or not. I also asked if softer steels are easier to hand thread than harder steels, and it said harder steels are harder to hand thread, which matches my experience. But again it said that 12L14 (the harder steel) is easier to thread than 8620.
I would much rather have the experience of someone hand threading both steels tell me which is the easiest to hand thread, rather than a machine which may be simply guessing.
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Hi Allan,
Thanks for your post and your note advising on its AI research!
I was one of the members not in favor of banding it from the forum, as I believe it would be a huge burden, if not impossible for the site managers to manage that effort. Coming from you with your extensive experience, it gives others a reliable source of key points important in the maintenance of the tree for best fruit quality. I had always known that allowing sun light into the canopy is very important, your article provides the reasons why very succinctly!
So thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Dennis
Kent, Wa
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Well, there you go: We all do it by reputation, which is why providing footnotes is necessary but insufficient. Itās the problem at the heart of the old self-perpetuating web of trust.
I donāt know. Probably I ought not to go any further. If I do it, I get punished. <Red Skeltonās Mean Little Kid smile.> I guess I do it anyway.
Climate Change! Anthropogenic Global Warming! There are only very few experts. The reason we listen to any of them is because they all agree whoās in their exalted society (and qualified to spout an opinion) and whoās not. Paradoxically this is what drives Skeptics nuts: Once upon a time, the acknowledged experts were caught conspiring to keep specifics about raw data collected and statistical methods of analysis out of the hands of skeptics. In those days, the in-crowd could provide all the footnotes the skeptics wanted. It was just that none of the published literature was very specific or even reasonably reliable when it came to duplicating results. The web of trust was as iron-clad as the in-crowd could make it, and dissent was not allowed. Things may have improved. I donāt hear so much about this anymore, or it could be that politics in scientific inquiry has become normalized.
I mention this in relation to A-I because it obscures its methods as well or better than the old web of trust ever did. Sure, we want and need footnotes, but we also expect them to lead to specifics that competing experts can independently verify.
You need to say not only that you know but also how you know.
Current AIs are heavy on the A, but less so on the I.
Took about 10 seconds to find a fruit related question which returned opposite answers.
ChatGPT:
Google Gemini:
With as you can see, the latter cited sources.
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Why does that frustrate you? The alternative seems to be expressing excessive confidence in the conclusions of research which Iām frequently frustrated by when reading university guidelines and recommendations. .
I read the research or something similar to the one you referred to about the brix reducing affect of summer pruning, although that issue seems to have gone to the wayside in how articles about summer pruning Iāve read more recently in trade publications like Good Fruit discuss it.
When I read about the research I was frustrated in the exact way you mention because I couldnāt tell what kind of pruning was done, although it was clear the research was pretty minimal- that different methods of pruning were never experimented with to see how certain kinds of summer pruning might have different affects on brix. No explanation was even provided about the mechanism that caused the dilution of brix in what I read back then. The thing is, that discovery never was followed up with careful research to my knowledge- probably because the industry is not that concerned about brix as long as fruit is reasonably palatable.
One concept that occurs to me and concerns me, because I do a hell of a lot of summer pruning of most species of fruit, is that the root system will provide more of everything it produces if there are fewer branches to serve, especially water. So you would only be able to reduce that problem with deficit irrigation or via prayers for drought.
Just make sure that when you do dormant pruning the tree is pruned to a very open shape that allows the sun to reach as much as the tree as possible or as some old timers used to say āprune it open enough that you can throw a cat through itā. If you have time, you can prune things from mid-spring on to discourage the tree from developing to large of a root system. Root pruning would be another option- but how much to cut?
You are so polite. [quote=āOlpea, post:42, topic:65893ā]
I donāt think this is extremely accurate.
[/quote]
What you are correctly saying is that the statement is dead wrong. Somehow the bot got confused. Cells are no longer multiplying but they are enlarging and our goal is to make sure they are filling up with enough sugar to sweeten up that water that is being drawn into the cells.
That is very interesting, and it leaves the question of whether the heavy rains 10 days before harvest donāt continue to reduce brix right up into harvest, especially on heavier soils or well mulched trees not competing with grass. The difference could be almost entirely about the duration of excess water for optimum brix.
I donāt have anything to argue about in what you posted and really appreciate your inputā¦ an not just because I agree with every word.
And this proves that ChatGPT is not God. You can find statements Iāve made on this forum that contradict each other, but for a different reasonā¦ my understanding of fruit trees is constantly evolving.
This is new technology with plenty of bugs to work out of. Why are people so critical of a service that is useful but imperfect when they donāt even pay for it?
My chain saw is a useful tool but I do most of my pruning with a Silky Gomtaro. However, for finer pruning I will use a lopper and finer still I use a hand pruner. I love all my pruning tools but every one of them is imperfect for certain requirements of pruning.
I just donāt understand why people would complain about a very useful tool that they get to use for free.
Sounds like an argument that might have been used against abolishionists in great grand pappyās day. 
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How is that funny or relevant? Even the premise makes no sense as slaves were a very expensive ātoolā to buy and keep, in fact, according Fredrick Olmsteadās research, more expensive than buying free labor at the time. He was puzzled why his research was of no interest to his slave holding friends. It doesnāt surprise me though, but that isnāt a subject that belongs here.
Weāve already discussed whether to ban AI on this forum and the idea was rejected. When you criticize it now whenever it is used, I believe your are hurting the forum, but even if you donāt feel that way, I donāt see how it is in any way constructive. I started this post by suggesting anyone who objects to the use of this tool should just click to another topic and I ask those of you who feel this way to do this here and in future posts I might make using Chat.
That doesnāt mean you shouldnāt criticize the content it provides, just not the use of it in a topic or comment. Please treat it just like anything else you might disagree with here- provide a rational counter argument- against the content but not the technology.
To my mind, you are otherwise being disrespectful to me and even this forum, especially with jokes like that one.
I think youāre giving your own interpretation of that discussion thread, (somewhat like an AI gives its own interpretation of the sum total of all data it collects).
The poll results in the lounge on this topic were in actuality the complete reverse of what you claim. In fact 68% of the poll respondents were against AI usage on the forum, while only 5% of respondents were in favor of unfettered AI content being permitted on the forum.
Actual poll results:
It would seem your interpretation of how acceptable posting AI content on the forum is, differs considerably from the majorities expressed feelings about AI content on the forum. If you insist on posting AI content on the forum it is only natural that blow back can be expected, given that the majority have expressed their disapproval of posting AI content.
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It was rejected by forum leadership. This isnāt public property with a constitution that created some kind of democracy.
I never said it was rejected by the majority of members, it was never put to a legitimate vote and it probably never will be.
Please stop hijacking my topic. If you wish to start your own post on the topic you seem most interested in, go ahead. This feel to me like harassment.
@alan I like you, and normally I love most of what you post.
I personally think thatās a most humorous remark coming from you, as Iād rate you as one of the most argumentative members on the forum. It comes off a little bit like the tea pot calling the kettle black from my recollections of many of your posts on the forum in the past.
I generally enjoy the vast majority of your posts and respect your vast wealth of knowledge you share with others on the forum. My apologies if you felt I was attacking you personally, that was not my intention. I was merely expressing my opinion. I will take my leave of this thread. Be well @alan .
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The answers I got from Chat AI included statements that fruit size increases in the final weeks and the one you mentioned that wrongly claimed the opposite. When I brought up the incorrect statement I may have created an edit in the app.
I said: Any peach grower knows that there is a big increase in size in the 2 weeks before ripening and it is size and color that is used to determine what is ripe enough to pick for many growers.
ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
Memory updated
Youāre absolutely right, and I appreciate your correction. In peach growing, the final two weeks before ripening are indeed critical for both size and color development. During this time, peaches can experience a significant increase in size as they undergo rapid cell expansion, and color changes also become more pronounced, helping growers determine optimal harvest time.
Key Points About the Final Weeks Before Harvest:
- Size Increase: During the last two weeks before harvest, peaches undergo substantial growth due to cell expansion. This late-stage growth can significantly impact the final size of the fruit, making it a crucial period for determining yield and marketability.
- Color Development: Alongside size, color development is a key indicator of ripeness. The skin color transitions from green to various shades of yellow, red, or blush, depending on the variety. This visual cue, along with size, is often used by growers to decide when the fruit is ready to pick.
- Ripening Indicators: Size and color are practical indicators for ripeness, especially in commercial peach production, where visual inspection is essential for timely harvest. These factors are often prioritized over internal sugar content (Brix) when determining the right time to harvest.
Thank you for pointing this out, and I appreciate your insights on the matter.
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I tried to get ChatGPT to cite scientific articles for an unrelated topic in biology. It will literally provide citations for non-existent publications. Perhaps even scarier, it will use the names of real journals and authors in the field with made up but plausible sounding titles.
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Start another topic to discuss problems with ChatGPT if you want to talk about issues not related to the information involved with this topic and please do us a favor, copy and paste your evidence as Iāve copied and pasted what I got from the service. Why should anyone believe you otherwise? How do I know if your comment is motivated by ideology or genuine info?
At any rate, Iāve already requested that my topic not be turned into a controversy about ChatGPT and away from matters concerning sweetening our harvests. Olpea pointed out a factual error in the content I posted that pertained to fruit trees- that is constructive criticism within the context of this topic. Please keep your comments within that boundary on this topic.
If you have another subject you want to discuss, bring it up in your own topic, please. The original topic is still generating useful responses and expanding ideas pertaining to obtaining the highest brix fruit. That is the kind of thing most of us come to this forum for.
Non fruit and vegetable related topics belong in the lounge.
I think your request as stated is unreasonable.
ChatGPT is new to most of us and understanding the context around what its output means is useful and important.
I very much appreciate that you described your query and how you refined it.
You made a statement without really justifying it. How are these hit jobs against Chat a constructive contribution to this topic? What Olpea did is what these other people should be doing- that is, constructively criticizing within the context of the topic. His comments were helpful and relevantā¦ demonstrating leadership qualities, Iād say.
The question of whether Chat should be banned was brought up months ago and rejected by leadership and ownership. This seems to me like children throwing tantrums because they didnāt get what they wanted. Fine, throw a tantrum, but not one that disrupts the conversation hereā¦ or be put in timeout.
Iām not defending other peoples comments. I donāt think Iāve read all of them.
Re-reading your post, I may have interpreted your request to be more restrictive than you meant.
To me it feels like the injection of politics and that they are using my topic to express their hatred of artificial intelligence in the manner of righteous crusaders. I have nothing against their opinions but everything against their insisting on using my topic as a forum to express political views. I started this topic suggesting that anyone that doesnāt like this technology should click out. Instead a few have honed in. Why?
Hopefully the topic hasnāt been killed by this.
Well, Iām interested in both how to get sweeter fruit, and the mechanisms related to that, as well as the application of AI to helping answer such questions.
I considered both of those areas as relevant to your post. I thought my response about sources was being lumped in with the off topics you were complaining about.
How to refine the query to make it more useful and accurate, and how to judge the accuracy of the response seem fair game to me.
I was impressed by your query and the result, and had to caution myself not to take the plausible and well stated assertions as fact. I would love to find sources for the pieces that were new to me. It seems silly to have to go search for them when it also seems like thatās exactly the sort of busy work that should be easily handled by a sophisticated AI. But, seeing your response, I can also understand why ChatGPT may not want to help people look under the hood.
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