Hybrid Persimmons Future Look Great

[Barkslip]

You got a JT-02 coming from Steven?

[Marco]

Got 2 small grafted trees from Buzz at Perfect Circle. I’ll put 1 in ground and keep 1 in a pot for insurance. There was a herd of deer in my backyard this morning. Ugh.

[Barkslip]

" fantastic "

[Jake-5B]

Hi all, I have 3 American Persimmons in the ground, and wish I wouldn’t have found this thread before buying those. I think I want to graft some hybrid varieties over a couple of them. I did buy some from Cliff England (JT-02 & Rosseyanka), but he was out of Mount Goverla / Gora Goverla. I’ve heard this variety is a very heavy producer of large fruit, somewhat similar to a Hachiya. Threefoldnursury is also sold out. I’ve been checking FigBid daily to see if any new varieties come out, but haven’t seen that one. Does anyone know where to get Goverla? Or would be willing to sell cuttings? I’d definitely be willing to pay a fair price. Thanks for any help!

[Richard]

@Jake-5B
Check this forum category, or make a request there:
https://growingfruit.org/c/trading-post/7/l/top

[DroppingFruit]

Check the suggested zone for Gora Goverla also. Persimmon Cold Hardiness Resource

Without protection you might not have a long lived tree in zone 5b

[Jake-5B]

Thank you, when I click on that link it says: " Oops! That page doesn’t exist or is private". I’m new to this forum so maybe I just don’t have access yet

[Barkslip]

Where do you live or where is the nearest huge city?

[Jake-5B]

Hi @Barkslip , I live in Lincoln, NE

[Barkslip]

that’s a good place to try Gova Roman Kosh, for sure!

Bury the graft union a foot and don’t plant anything unless it has at least a 5-gallon set of roots and something like 3/4" is visible somewhere on it. The optimal tree @Fusion_power has told me is 3-4 feet and persimmons when I grow them a little past a 5-gallon (probably/maybe) are mostly 5’ I’d say. Those reach 3/4" for sure but are so tight together in my nursery they also stretch for sunlight.

So, think about those things. Do it. Go against complete horticulture rules of planting. The trees will be hardier, much; they won’t have issues 20-years from now for sure (we know that much today) and during these first 20-years they aren’t leaning either.

Later, if the tree survives a typical winter there (like -14 F let’s say for a day and several other days that test it like -10 and -12, where you have several “cold times” hopefully spaced) and then you find out how hardy it is again. If it’s still alive, then you begin the process like the Ukrainians do (if necessary - if you have a lot of dieback or a lot of cambial injury), you begin to pile dirt up against the trunk each late Fall. Go 3 feet high if you can. Go at least 2. Make a mound or volcano; pile as much dirt as you can against anything above ground & as high as you’re willing to do. And walk away and see what happens.

That’s how these things are going to have to go for further learning.

Thanks for your interest. I wish I could help you with scion but I have maybe 4" of scionwood of Gora Roman Kosh and a tree I already cut a lot of and I need to get flowers so I can breed… I need to back this one up.

Dax

[Jake-5B]

Thanks for all the details! Yeah I think maybe burying above the graft might be the best way to go then. And I’ll have to take a look at Gova Roman Kosh, haven’t done any research yet. But if it’s productive, largish, and tastes good, I’d be very happy.

-Jake

[Richard]

@Jake-5B
In case you haven’t seen it, we have a hybrid persimmon project here on GrowingFruit. Here’s a link to the data:

List of hybrid persimmon species available in USA

Here’s a link to our updated list in Google Sheet format. The link is “live” to the document I edit. It is read-only, but you can use the Google Sheet “File” menu to make an editable copy, print, and download to various formats. U.S. Hybrid persimmons list Also, here is a link to the compressed folder containing various references and the software I’ve written with Mathematica® to generate the parent-sibling diagram: Hybrid persimmons in U.S. circulation.zip I am willing to consider requests…

[Jake-5B]

Thank you! Seems like Mount Goverla probably won’t work in my area. Good to know this resource is available!

[disc4tw]

Welcome to the forum Jake! Here are some other related threads you might want to check out. To begin with a primer from Dax:

PCA / PCNA / PVA / PVNA / persimmons and what this all means

This is my way of understanding this: P = Pollen C = Consistent N = Non A = Astringent J = Japan (kaki from Japan are known to ripen on the grafted-trees) C = Chinese (kaki from China are known to be ripened mainly with CO2 gas) PCA = Pollen Consistent Astringent No matter the pollen had at it, it will always need ripening off the tree. PCNA = Pollen Consistent Non Astringent This means that pollen does nothing. And that the fruit ripens on the tree. Now, when pollen is introduced to…

Persimmon Cold Hardiness Resource

With all the incorrect information out there on random asian persimmon cultivars being “zone 6” hardy etc, we need a good resource of what the facts are on cold hardiness of asians and hybrids etc. Especially taking into consideration these 10 year polar vortex freezes that kill back nice orchards in zone 7 where hardier plantings could have avoided that, if the correct info were available. Would you all be up for us getting together and sharing lists of what persimmons were lost or survived, …

Hybrid persimmon Dar Sofiyivky

A new star from Ukraine is called Dar Sofiyivky (Gift of Sofiivka)… a true masterpiece from a workshop of Vasil Derevyanko. Consider this: [DS 01] [DS 02] [DS 03] it is zone 5 hardy. If you can grow Rosseyanka you can grow Dar Sofiivky without any problems. attractive large fruit up to 150 g. very early. In fact it is one of the earliest hybrids that I know. Suitable for the short season climates. fully parthenocarpic - it doesn’t need any pollinator. I haven’t noticed any fruit drop dur…

^^ This one has some pertinent side conversations throughout the thread, as does the one below

Anybody growing Taishu in the U.S.?

Taishu is a Japanese PCNA persimmon, released from the Japanese breeding program in 1995. It has the following interesting characteristics: It is derived from Fuyu and Jiro, with enough Hanagosho and Okugosho that it reliably produces male flowers. It evidently tastes so good that has been sold in Japan, individually wrapped, for almost $30 apiece. Combined, #1 & #2 suggest that Taishu should supplant various male-flowering Gosho varieties as the male side of breeding experiments wit…

[jrd51]

Re the discussion of PV varieties, I found this paper very helpful. Note that the issue isn’t pollen per se, it’s seeds. Of course, you need pollen to get seeds. But clouds of pollen won’t make a PV persimmon non-astringent unless the pollen produces seeds.

Seeds matter if they produce ethanol, which is readily transformed into acetaldehyde, which precipitates tannins. So issue #1 is whether the seeds produce ethanol – and how much. Issue #2 is whether the flesh of the persimmon accumulates the ethanol that is produced.

As the paper suggests, PCNA varieties become non-astringent early, while still firm, because they never produce much tannin in the first place. PCA varieties stay non-astringent until very late in the ripening process because they produce tannin but they never produce much ethanol and/or they never accumulate the ethanol in their flesh.

On the other hand, PVA and PVNA varieties produce tannins (like PCAs) but also produce ethanol, more or less, and in addition accumulate the ethanol in their flesh. Accumulated ethanol is the key to PV non-astringency.

These issues may matter especially for hybrids because it is unclear how the seeds and flesh of American persimmons perform. The flesh does not seem to become non-astringent in the presence of exogenous ethanol, which may suggest that the flesh of DV varieties does not accumulate ethanol. If DV brings the wrong genes to the party, it may be very difficult to breed a fully PVNA hybrid.

2327-9834-article-p319.pdf (563.2 KB)

[Jake-5B]

Thanks for the help! Been looking around, maybe need to do some more research on other varieties. Glad all of this is available, and exciting to see if there will be any more hardy, seedless, self-fertile, heavy producing varieties in the future!

[disc4tw]

Happy to help! Glad to see another interested member on the forum.

[DroppingFruit]

If I were you I would go with the American, Lehman’s delight (100-46) and JT-02 Mikusu Hybrid. just to keep it simple for starters, then try some others which are more of a risk/ for fun.

[Richard]

@DroppingFruit

the American

Specifically, Prok.

[Jake-5B]

Thanks all! So far I have a male, Early Golden and Meader. I bought cuttings from Cliff England for JT-02, Rosseyanka, Prok, and Yates to graft onto the tops of some of the branches of my young trees. Hoping in a few years to get some good fruit! Never actually tasted these varieties, but I really like the Hachiya’s from the store. Did not care for the non- astringent Fuyu