Noticed a trend in the data, and couldn’t resist charting it. Would be interesting to see how it plays out with a larger range of cultivars.
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Yes, I think that generally seems to be true. When I saw the weights, I was wondering if they were averages, and more realistic ones at that, than some of the sizes I’ve seen posted previously - like Gora Hoverla being 200-250g.
I will admit, I thought Gift of Sofiivka was larger than the size in this chart indicates based on the excitement around it, etc., but maybe that is more about its earliness and overall taste. I think 80g about what JT-02 averages as well, although that seems to be a later season fruit.
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It might come close. It’s not from my tree but I visited it. Maybe comparable to what Jiro can potentially get in size.
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There is, of course, some confounding of fruit size with Asian/American heritage.
At one end, you have pure Americans – “Mider” (presumably Meader) and generic “Virginia Crops.” At the other end, you have pure Kakis – Hyakume, Rojo Brillante and what looks like Hachiya. “Want” seems a mistranslation.
I assume everything else is in the middle because it’s hybrid.
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I just find it interesting how linear the relationship is across categories. Almost too tidy, but believable. I know precisely nothing about how that data was compiled. It could be wild guesses or fabrications for all I know. At the very least, it’s almost certainly not a random sample. So what needs to happen is we round up as many varieties as we can, get average fruit weight under comparable growing conditions at a number of sites, and send a bunch up to zone 3 and figure out exactly what temp they die at. Piece of cake.
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It looks like Dar Sofiyivki is it at least capable of breaking 100g, if you look at the last picture in the first post here:
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The key question, however, is whether the correlation between tenderness and size represents anything causal. Suppose you send a bunch of varieties to Z3, and all the trees with big fruit (i.e., the Kakis) die. What would that show, other than that Kakis are not cold hardy? And you know that already.
You might save yourself some effort by replicating your graph for Kaki varieties only (i.e., examining size while controlling for species). I think you’ll find no correlation or perhaps a weak correlation in the opposite direction. For example, my IKKJ has fairly large fruit and is relatively cold hardy for a Kaki.
Same for Virginiana varieties. My Dollywood fruit are much larger than H63A or Barbra’s Blush, but I bet it’s comparably cold hardy.
Finally, if we’re OK jumping species, then consider D. Lotus. The fruits are small but the trees are tender, the opposite of your trend.
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There’s definitely a correlation in that data, and for that matter the correlation matrix is not singular (a fault in many horticultural studies).
Now is there anything causal? That’s an interesting question.
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@jrd51 @richard
Hold your horses. Yes, there’s correlation, but remember the source of the data is a screenshot of a post from a Ukrainian language persimmon group on Facebook, run through Google translate. There is no indication of how that data was compiled. It could be a multi-year, multi-site empirical study, Cousin Jimmy asking the gnomes, or anything in between. Right now, I’m giving it a 50% credibility rating as a best guess. All that being said, it’s certainly interesting and makes me want to investigate further. Would be really interesting if it did continue to hold up on a relatively consistent gradient from the smallest virginiana through medium hybrid and the largest kaki.
Assuming the data is good, I highly doubt it’s causal. More likely, they share a common root. I hope you realize my above post was meant in jest, but my idea is not to see whether they die in z 3, but at what temp. It would of course be preposterous to try to pin down at exactly what temperature threshold they die, as well as not particularly useful.
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I like your field test idea. Much better than the speculation that sometimes occurs in this thread.
Real world results often vary from published research. Ponca blackberry comes to mind. Supposedly hardy to below zero F, in the freeze of 22nd December 2022, all of my Ponca’s died to ground level at -3F. I hate to think what people in Kentucky, Indiana, and Pennsylvania think of Ponca if they planted expecting it to be cold hardy.
By the way, correlation does not equal causation. What I see is a correlation where Kaki is not as cold hardy as Virginiana. It does not infer fruit size is correlated other than as a generalization that Virginiana is small and most selected Kaki are large.
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Ison’s says “Zones 5-9”.
The UA patent says “Plants have performed well with no winter injury with winter temperatures of 1° F.”
Ponca Blackberry Patent.pdf (1.1 MB)
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Hi, sorry I don’t get to messages often
Universal may or may not be “Chuchupaka” since (I read) this cultivar also bears male flowers. I haven’t been able to find any more clarity. I’ll ask around. But yeah, I had recalled a discussion in Ukrainian re: this topic. Let’s see if I can confirm.
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I’ve never seen male flowers on my chuchupaka. Lots of female flowers and fruit.
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A Russian emigre friend who speaks Russian fluently and a smattering of Ukrainian/Bulgarian/belarusian from being a kid in the USSR submits as a translation attempt (knowing nothing about Persimmons):
“ Meader (30 grams -32 degrees C)
Virginia large-fruited
Sosnovskaya
Chuchupaka
Sophie’s gift
Rosseyanka
Bozhy dar
Nikita burgundy
Hoverla mountain/Gora Goverla
hyakume
rojo brillante
Hachiya”
edit: I see @OckooMicrofarm has gotten to this since but just adding anyway
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Thanks for the additional translation. That helps clarify that what first came out as Charisma is Bozhy dar.
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Happy to! Another Ukrainian friend, who knows even less about plants, offered to take a second look. But if we have an original source on Facebook or whatever they could probably get more.
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There’s our alternate name! But I actually quite like the original.
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I know translation is tricky business, but ‘Charisma’ and ‘Want’??? And since it about nailed all of the others, and least in a phonetically recognizable way, I cant help but wonder what strange information seaway did it pull those red herrings from?
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I think Bozhy Dar means God’s Gift. It’s an interesting way for a language to describe charisma.
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