Yes they are PCA.
I have 2 PCNA and 2 PCVA. No fruit yet, that says it all.
Information about the latest PCNAs in Crimea does not filter since it is Russian.
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When you say “I have 2 PCNA and 2 PCVA” (a) I assume you mean PVNA, and (b) I’m unsure whether you mean that these are possible hybrids, kaki x virginiana.
If these are possible hybrids, since there’s been no fruit I assume you have no proof that the fruit actually is non-astringent. Other people interpreted your statements to imply that there are PCNA and PVNA hybrids of kaki x virginiana in Europe and the U.S. It seems to me that this was a misinterpretation. So can you clarify? Are you aware of a confirmed K x V hybrid that is NA?
I hate to be this obtuse but often when you say “this says it all” the reality for most of us is that it doesn’t say enough.
Joe, he said too (Russia).
And yes, it’s as straightforward as possible…!
It makes so much sense to me that I can’t understand why you cannot understand. God believe it/Better Believe it.
This man above had 95, 96, etc- cultivars that you hit the like button (for empathy) at wild boars destroying around 75 of them completely!
I’m going to comment once more about our friend. It’s very likely that he doesn’t comment because taste is subjective. He just grafted them. He can only relate what others say.
Dax
Dax – From what I read above, the claim is that there are PCNA and PVNA hybrids of kaki x virgininana in Russia, the EU and/or the U.S. But the parents are not known?
I’ll make it simple for you – no Russian! – what are the names of the two PVNA hybrids in the EU / US?
there’s my answer. and he says (to your point Joe) (and to my not reading carefully enough) that there are two more PVNA here in the US.
Since you, myself, and this conversation is leaning towards breeding a hybrid PCNA, the two PVNA in the USA are going to be ‘Coffee Cake’ or ???
(I don’t know the two already here. Maybe one is Coffee Cake?)
Arthus says:
“You have 2 PCNA hybrids in Russia in Nikita’s garden.”
And he has (2) PCNA hybrids already grafted.
I don’t know Joe. That’s my reading of the situation you’re asking him about.
I’m sorry if there’s a piece of the pizza missing so to speak. I’m putting together a lot of pieces from the same (2) links above I left up there for you to (gather) what I’m putting-together let’s say.
From this point forward, you can piece together more of what I’m doing already:
At Arthus is talking a lot in a short reading distance via this link.
There are, there are today several hybrid PCNA and PVNA today.
I didn’t get the fruit but the sources are sure.
Literature from recent trials in Russia points to several hybrids PCNA. But I didn’t understand how they did it, especially with a Meader hybrid whose 2 parents are PCA. Would they have used the Japanese work on the location of the PCNA gene…
This subject is not of interest, I will no longer participate in this discussion.
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@Arthus76, @Barkslip –
Re hybrid PCNA – so if such trees exist, they are restricted to some research facility in Russia. And maybe you have grafts. But almost nobody has actually seen and fruited these unicorns. Moreover a PCA hybrid of Meader is one parent, so the hybrid could not have been produced by cross-breeding with a Japanese PCNA. Possibly the Chinese PCNA. Or possibly some genetic modification.
Doesn’t the Russian literature say what they did? That’'s the point of publication, no?
Re hybrid PVNA – there are hybrids, you say? In the U.S. and the E.U.? So what about these?
You may not have interest but it really isn’t fair to make a statement like that without any details. The rest of us have interest as is evident from this thread.
Life is not fair. He is under no obligation to disclose anything here. Just saying, we need to respect boundaries.
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Sure, but why share just a little information? Why make bold assertions then not back them up? IMO, anyone who posts here accepts an obligation to communicate as honestly and openly as possible. The poster crosses a boundary. The posts I’m questioning don’t meet that standard. They are self-consciously disingenuous.
@Dax – FWIW, your Post #750 is off target. There are lots of PVNA’s in the U.S., one of which Coffee Cake. But there are no Kaki x Virginiana hybrids that are PVNA. You can’t justify the claim that there are PVNA hybrids by pointing to a PVNA kaki.
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I’m late to the party and haven’t carefully read the posts, but from my admittedly superficial reading of the more recent posts in this thread, I’m sympathetic to jrd51’s frustration.
It seems like Arhus has made some extraordinary claims, then decided he was bored or offended and backed away. The hybrids he refers to are of great interest to the folks here, right? If they might be accessible physically, or more information is available about them - that raises obvious questions of where and how.
When the extraordinary, and succinct claim that there are non-astringent hybrids in existence, it seems reasonable to confirm that the statement is being interpreted correctly. That there isn’t a miscommunication or misunderstanding.
This is a big thread, and some of us interact here in fits and spurts. It seems that I may be clumsily stomping around and showing my ignorance of what’s been covered before. I see reference to personal or general tragedy, and if folks are stepping lightly because of that - I can understand that the search for knowledge and the desire for compassion and accommodation may have clashed.
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When I communicate with people, I look at who I am dealing with!
When I read your writings, I see that you don’t question people’s words. I have nothing to prove, neither to you nor to anyone else. What I do I do for me and for my friends with whom I share it. If I came, it was because I was asked to intervene…otherwise I would not have written.
You are in negation to find. I see this every day. Don’t count on me to give you names or GPS coordinates of trees. I say there are some in the USA and you continue to say there are none… I leave you to your unicorns, look carefully.
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My sole goal is to help ensure that people don’t waste time on a wild goose chase. There are two direct routes to a hybrid PCNA that do not require genetic manipulation. One is a back-cross of JT02 x Taishu. The other is a cross of any DV with a Chinese PCNA. Without more info, your discussion is just a huge distraction from these approaches.
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There are other PCNA out there that have male flowers too that could be crossed with JT-02. Oku Gosho and Hana Gosho are 2 that come to mind.
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Yeah, that’s true. Any male-flowering PCNA would do. My recollection is that Taishu is a more prolific male flowerer. Also, Taishu’s fruit has caused a sensation in Japanese retail markets. For both reasons, it would be the preferred choice. But you are quite right that any male-flowering PCNA would work.
Using other PCNA males that are not Taishu on JT-02 may be a better choice. The back cross to Taishu is likely to produce some inbreeding depression. A different male is more likely to produce vigorous seedlings.
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I am hoping that my JT02 was pollinated by Maru(PVNA). That was the only male in bloom this year at that time.
Maru is excellent tasting — better than any PCNA I’ve tried. I bet Taishu is great but Maru isn’t bad either.
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I have California Maru from fruitwood nursery.
I find the various varieties with Maru in their names almost as confusing as what get called Fuyu.
Chocolate also seems to be used to refer to more than one variety 
What Maru do you grow that you like?
Intuitively this might seem right. But consider that the Asian PCNA gene pool is already very restricted. Inbreeding depression has been a serious challenge for Japanese and Korean breeders. They have found it necessary to work very hard – test lots of seedlings – to get good quality trees and fruits from their crosses.
Taishu is a product of these efforts. It is 1/2 Fuyu, 1/4 Jiro, 1/8 Okogosho, and 1/8 Hannagosho. So it is already very representative off the PCNA Kaki universe. It is already way more diverse than any of its individual progenitors and, moreover, it has been selected for its good traits.
JT-02 is a cross of Taishu x DV. That cross brings cold hardiness, some different flavors, and who knows what else. Certainly it brings some genetic diversity.
The suggested cross of JT-02 x a different PCNA male, maybe Okugosho or Hanagosho, would create offspring that are 50% that variety. These offspring would paradoxically be LESS diverse than the offspring off a back-cross of JT-02 x Taishu. That cross would be 75% Taishu but that implies 37.5% Fuyu, 18.8% Jiro, 9.4% Okugosho, and 9.4% Hanagosho, plus 25 DV. Sounds pretty good.
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