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Comparing Early Golden to those above (thank you James!):
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what is the typical size of Early Golden?
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how does the flavor of Early Golden compare to the three above?
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Yup, that is what I would expect.
Prok and Yates are a tad larger than 100-46, but definately not 3.
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Do you know of a comparison that shows 100-46 being smaller than prok? I understood 100-46 to be maybe the biggest D.V. (Correction, Barbara’s blush, Dollywood and Yates are listed as up to 2.5" on Cliffs website nuttrees.com)
Photo of a yates for rough comparison
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There are two Proks. I don’t know which one @SMC_zone6 (picture source I believe?) has or which one my neighbor has.
Yates is consistently larger than Prok (I have a sample size of exactly 1 of each locally lol, though I have seen other trees elsewhere). I believe Cliff advertises it as 2.5. The Prok close to me is more productive than the Yates, so I’m not sure if achieving a larger size has to do with thinning. At a certain point, thinning does nothing, so then you really know the max fruit size.
The Prok here is thinned, and occasionally I do see the 2 inch or slightly larger.
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OGW states Early golden size here From what I have read the taste is good or above average American Flavor. I have not tasted it.
I don’t really think it matters that much though. 100-46, Prok, Yates, Early Jewel, Barb’s Blush, these are all still significantly bigger than gumball or golfball sized cultivars.
If say you have to give up 5% taste for 20% bigger fruit, most people would take that trade on a D. Virg., especially if the starting point is something small fruited. I think most people would make the reverse trade when it comes to kakis, since they are already so big.
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@Richard I haven’t tasted Early Golden myself, but have read several people saying it was their best tasting American persimmon, including cousinfloyd. One reason some people don’t like it, besides the fact that it is smaller than Prok, Yates, etc., is that it is known to sometimes have male flowers so you get seeded fruit in all your Virginiana. I wasn’t going to grow it for that reason, but I must have male persimmons around and am getting seeded fruit, so I might add it at some point.
It does sound like some of the smaller ones are more flavorful than some of the newer ones selected for larger size - Early Golden, H63A and Morris Burton for instance.
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John Gordon firmly believed that seeded persimmons were of notably better quality, and my experience has at least partly borne that out. For 5 or more years, my Prok trees would drop all of their fruit in the fall, when full size and seemingly almost ripe. They’d mostly not color up, and the few that did would be very astringent. Then one year, one of the trees was pollinated (self, I think) and the fruit was very good quality. Fruits had no astringency and good flavor at normal ripening time. Many of the fruits hung on the tree through to about mid-December, and they got semi-dry and extremely sweet and flavorful.
The experience is pure anecdote, so take it for what it is, but consider that fruit is really just a vessel for distributing seed. As such, the ripeness of the seed is ultimately the prescient detail as far as the tree is concerned. The seed is linked vascularly and metabolically to the tree in a way that the fruit simply can’t be. The seed chemically signals its ripeness, which then triggers, among other things, dehiscence of the ripe fruit. Without the seed, the tree has no feedback as to the quality or ripeness of the fruit (is my understanding, anyway) so seedless fruit tends toward lower Brix and early dropping.
Anyway, that was more or less John Gordon’s take, and I think it makes a lot of sense.
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Just curious, do you only associate the problem as a pollination one? I mean it sounds like the fruit formed anyways. Do you think that prok maybe just needs a longer season? I dont think there has been much in the way of compared notes on this aspect. Is it even an issue for D. Virg. (season length)?
They would start dropping well before frost and before achieving suitable color/sweetness as to indicate ripeness. The habit of dropping nearly ripe fruit early on in bearing has been noted by others, elsewhere. I remember some spirited talk on the NAFEX listserv about it some years back
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I’d also note that since then, I’ve been pleased with my Prok. It’s consistently ~1.5 - 1.75” diameter x ~2” high fruits are really good eating, to me at least. They have a nice fleshy texture that’s a little firmer than others. The flavor is not as front and center as some other varieties, maybe, but I like it. They start ripening here in earnest around Oct. 1 or so, about a month before substantial frost most years, IME
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Just to be clear, Early Golden and Morris Burton have been around for a long time. H63A is a cross of Morris Burton x Early Golden.
This is pretty ironic because Claypool expended a huge amount of effort trying to improve Early Golden, which he used in zillions of crosses.
There three persimmon trees in the foreground. They are the last trees left of Claypool’s breeding orchard in St. Elmo (not the big evaluation orchard everyone knows about). It was the location of his business office. It’s a hair salon now, behind a gas station. The tree on the left is Florence. Middle one is John Rick. Right one is Killen. He got the scion directly from J.C.McDaniel, the breeder of both Florence and John Rick - both daughters of Killen.
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I am aware, but go talk to others like Cliff and john brittian ( when he was still around). There was a false john rick sold. How it entered circulation i dont know precisely. I never implied it came out of claypools plantings. But while we are on that subject, there is nothing to say claypool never ever had a mislabel or recieved a mislabel. Seriously, go talk to cliff this john rick thing has been discussed ad nasium within IFNGA.
Btw, since you are posted preciously about josephine being missing and cannot be located. It has been located. I have been hunting that ine down for many years. One of the big nutaholics for nafex help find it recently!
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I’m not privy to the mind of Jim Claypool, but I expect Mr Claypool chose “Early Golden” exactly because the flavor was so good. Any hoped for improvements would have been size and removal of tannin speckling in the pulp.
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Yeah, that’s likely part of it. I figured maybe also used Early Golden because he needed a pollen donor with some positive traits. Or maybe he wanted to produce a fruit similar to EG that grew on an all female tree and so could be seedless. obviously I’m just guessing.
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I forgot who it was, but there is someone (I think it is Don Compton?) that has compiled a lot of breeder notes for Claypool. If you’re interested in the reasoning behind the x y and zed, you should reach out to him.
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@JustPeachy – Thanks. I’m trialing H63A and Dollywood, which fills my quota for Claypool varieties (including one Early Golden offspring), as well as Morris Burton and Barbra’s Blush, which fills my quota for American varieties. Plus the Prok that doesn’t work for me. I guess I’m curious what Claypool was trying to accomplish and whether he thinks he succeeded. But I’ve placed enough bets for now.