@OckooMicrofarm @hobilus I know we had a pretty mild winter here in New England, but how did your Dar Sofiyivki trees fare? My one little tree spent the winter in the garage, so it got even less of a stress test.
Consistent with this view: My young JT-02 tree (grafted in 2021) suffered significant damage to 1-yr old wood during the winter of 2022-23, when Feb '23 temps temporarily dipped to -7 F. There was no damage to the graft itself or the 2-yr old wood.
I know that JT-02 is tougher than this. But the observation exemplifies the point that young trees will not display optimal hardiness.
FWIW, in the same location, an established Kasandra showed no damage. But three established IKKJs were nearly killed – all 1-2 year old wood was killed.
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Mine is doing great. It pushed just under 6 ft of growth last year from a single bud near the graft union after dying almost completely back. It appears not to have suffered any damage of any kind, even at the tip of the leader. Buds are showing green as of last week:
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Bozhyj dar came through unscathed too. It completely died last year for unknown reasons (possibly the wild temp swings) but is pushing growth as well.
I DID see some dieback and substantial black streaking on one of my JT-02 trees. Ive wondered at times what is up with that black. It obviously correlates with tissue damage or death but seems to creep in mysteriously at times. Ive cut and received scions that have it before recognizing it for what it is.
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And there are also so many odd little situations, like a warm winter with a sudden cold snap, and random flukes, that it’s hard to tell with any certainty from just one event at one site. I’ve lost a little confidence in Dar Sofiyivky, but not a lot.
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Looks great!
Thankfully, I don’t need it to be hardy to -17 F. In 12 years here, -5 to -7 F is the worst I’ve seen. But -3 is not uncommon. And I’m willing to protect the tree for a couple years. So if it proves hardy to -10 F I’ll be set. But I do feel very bad for the growers in colder zones.
-7 F in Feb 2023 was one of those “odd little situation” – it was a warm winter otherwise. That said, I already have IKKJ, Saijo, Sheng and Giboshi in the ground. I would expect all of them to die before Dar Sofiyivky. 
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We had 0F here back in January. My Dar Sofiyivkiy is very healthy with nearly 2 feet of new growth. I had cut almost all of it for scionwood back in February and sent to forum members leaving only 2 buds for it to grow from. Both are expanding rapidly. I hope to cut 7 or 8 feet of scionwood this winter. My tree is from Dax.
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YMMV, I had Tony weather and NB-02 survived for me on a frankentree (it’s spindly wood, not main branches) in a colder frost pocket open valley (so possibly colder), but it was grafted 4’+ high on the tree so not right at ground level.
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This brings up a good point. The maturity of the rootstock appear to matter. I know this (maybe among other things) because JT-02 suffered fairly severe damage at -7 F grafted to a young seedling but zero damage grafted to a mature DV tree. Same scion source, same year grafted.
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Our winter was the second warmest on record so I cannot contribute much. Our lowest temp was 0°F and Dar Sofiyivky, JT-02, and even Gora Goverla in ground (planted in one of my warmest spots, however) did not have any dieback or damage and are thriving. The previous season we had a low around -5°F and it killed JT-02 AND 100-46, but I attribute this to untimely late planting coupled with that low temp being a record for December, which is usually not that cold…whereas last fall I got trees in ground in early fall instead. I would probably try to protect them this coming winter if I saw negative temps in the forecast.
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Between these hybrids below, which would you plant next to a Sestronka (NB-21) ???:
I choose the NB-21 cause I heard it has the most American flavor among the hybrids a few years ago.
and going to graft more soon to give away to friends (and keep 1 for myself and maybe graft a few to my 100-46).
Zima khurma (NB-02):
Kasandra
Mikkusu kaki Hybrid (JT-02)
Rosseyanka
Chuchupaka
Dr Kazas Hybrid
Prok x ‘Hokkaido Male’
Bozhyj Dar
Dar Sofiyivki
PS OokaFarms Tim, told me a while back a few tasting notes. Latter two maybe sound interesting.:
Zima Khurma is a sugar bomb. Very sweet.
Kasandra is very nice, complex
Mikkussu is very sweet, honeyed and complex.
Anyone sample more than those?
Some of the recent posts have me rethinking the hybrids in my z5b. I have 30 hybrid seeds currently germinating from Cliff E. Maybe I’ll protect them this upcoming winter, but just let them all fend for themselves after that. Maybe I’ll get lucky with some hardy genetics in a few.
I think I’m going to pivot back to American in my plans for trees in the field though unless one of these hybrids can survive -15F with little dieback.
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By all accounts Mikkusu/JT-02 should have no problems barring an extremely bad winter (tested down to -22F on several occasions), and Chuchupaka is probably similar but not as thoroughly tested. To my knowledge, all the other hybrids in circulation that are worth growing fall somewhere below those two in hardiness. Dar Sofiyivki I have seen fairly reputably reported as hardy to -20F, but as you know the devil is in the details, and 5b New Hampshire it’s not unheard of to get that low.
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I haven’t had colder than -17° (3x) in the 18 years I’ve been in this location. Feb 23 was the worst with 40mph winds and low dewpoints so that was extra desiccating. I have to go back to 09 and 11 for the other -17s. But I feel like we’re due for a rogue airmass colder than that in the coming years…even with the background warming signal.
Maybe I should’ve used 90c viginiana seedlings for rootstock instead of the hybrids. I’d hate to lose a maturing JT-02 because the rootstock couldn’t handle -10F.
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Yes, I’ve been waiting for that shoe to drop. The worst of the cold snaps in the 5 years I’ve been at this property seem to have passed south and west of me. My urban heat island provides a modicum of insurance, but I’m sure it’s only a matter of time.
I bought some “hybrid” seeds from Cliff last year, and he threw in some free ones in my order this year.
Are they just from random persimmons in the field (so they can be “American x American” or “American x Asian” or “American x Hybrid”)? I think someone answered this in a previous post or PM to me, but i forget answer. or purposeful manual crosses? I thought the former since i would assume he would label the crosses if he spent time to cross them manually.
I threw about 60-80 seeds in a very large bag-pot… they pretty much all germinated. They were not babied at all … exposed to the elements (and frozen soil in the pot) over the winter, and maybe 8-10 survived from last year. I might give them away at the end of the summer if can’t find a friend to take them on locally.
Also whats the expected % of male vs female? I think someone said 50/50 in a prev post, but in a more detailed FB Marketplace post I saw recently (selling American seedlings, not hybrids though), they claimed only 15% will be female.
Late spring freezes can cause some very serious damage on the hardy hybrids compared to straight D.V. The hybrids seem to want to wake just a bit earlier… whether it’s apparent or not.
In my admittedly limited experience, I find that the couple hybrids I have wake up a smidge behind my Americans. But your larger point is very valid. It’s the spring cold snaps that’ll getcha.
It seems extremely unlikely that American x Asian would produce seeds that could be viable without serious attention in a lab.
On the other hand, American x Hybrid seems very possible, judging from the numbers of seeds in my Kasandra last year.
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