There is absolutely nothing in this video that implies anything about the percentage of kaki in Sophies Gift. He only states that Nikita’s Gift is the grandparent and embryo rescue was used. According to @Harbin, “Колгоспниця is a mother parent of Dar Sofiyivky… Колгоспниця is a direct offspring from Nikita’s Gift backcrossed with monoecious kaki”.
The seeds produced by Колгоспниця were underdeveloped, so embryo rescue was used to recover viable seedlings. The pollen parent of SG is unknown, as it was open pollinated. I have read that it was also kaki, but even if it was a pure virginiana, SG would still be >40% kaki. I think it is possible that the pollen parent was also a hybrid that added a little more D.v. hardiness into the mix, but until genetic markers are developed to sort it out, we really don’t know.
Im not clear on whether Rosseyanka 2 male is a separate cultivar (my understanding) or a sport of Rosseyanka. If theres a single generation between Rosseyanka and Rosseyanka 2 male, it would presumably be a backcross to either kaki or virginiana, making it 75% of either.
Someone (Im thinking @harbin or @Arhus76 ) mentioned that many to most breeding of Ukrainian hybrids is being done with open pollination, so we may not know for some time if ever
Hmmm, dont kmow how I missed that one. I think I even had a stick of it last season but neglected to graft it thinking it was a late variety. Think Ill have to hunt that one down for next year! thanks
My understanding is that Rosseyanka was crossed with itself, which presumes that the original Rosseyanka produces some male flowers. At least one of the offspring was male. This “Rossey2 Male” was cloned for use as a pollen source for a bunch of crosses. Great Wall x Rossey 2 produced Kasandra; some unidentified (at least to me) Kaki x Rossey 2 produced Nikita’s Gift.
Start from the beginning Rosseyanka aka Russian Beauty is a 50% hybrid.
Rosseyanka persimmon was bred from (Diospyros virginiana x Diospyros kaki) 50/50. Rosseyanka Persimmon trees are an extremely cold hardy Russian hybrid crossed with an American native Persimmon… Rosseyanka persimmon was one of the first cross breeds of American persimmon Diospyros virginiana persimmon and the Asian Kaki persimmon.
@Harbin has said before a number of years ago
“Rosseyanka originated in 1959 by Pasenkov at the Nikitsky Botanical Garden. He crossed a seedling no.213 of American Persimmon (female) with pollen of Asian Persimmon forms 48 and 145. A hybrid no. 18 has been grown up in vitro (laboratory conditions)and fruited in 1964 for the first time. It was named “Rosijanka”. That’s the story.”
Englands says this
" Rosseyanka Hybrid - Persimmon of exceptional quality and the large size which in near a 3 inch persimmon that ripens late and is very delicious we have been growing this selection for Approx. 20 year or so and We have never been disappointed with the crops of Luscious fruit that looks like Orange Orbs when the tree looses the leaves and the fruit remains on the trees. Reminiscent of Dio. Virginiana our native persimmons but Suitable for Zone 5 and very hardy down to about -18 degrees it is one of our favorites here our orchards."
In this thread Rosseyanka is rightly called a 50% hybrid aka F1
@stan says this "No, it does not. Rosseyanka translates as “a Russian woman” or, formally, “a female citizen of Russia”. россиянка - Wiktionary
Unfortunately, it’s common in the US plant trade to replace “difficult” foreign variety names by anglicized versions, like Russian Beauty instead of Rosseyanka or Nikita’s Gift instead of Nikitskaya Bordovaya. This often creates some confusion."
Im going to take a minute an reference this thread
Nikita’s Gift™ Hybrid Persimmon is from the Nikita Botanic Garden in Yalta, Ukraine, this unique hybrid of Asian and American Persimmon bears bountiful crops of sweet and flavorful, reddish-orange fruit followed by strikingly beautiful, orange-yellow fall foliage. Nikita’s Gift™ Hybrid Persimmon grows 10-12 ft. in height, is self-fertile and hardy to minus 10 °F.
This is an f2 hybrid NG dropped fruits the first 2 years. Nikita’s Gift is a seedling of Rossyanka X Kaki. Nikita’s Gift in my understanding is 75% kaki, and 25% virginiana. Remember its mother
Rosseyanka is 50% hybrid but now crossed back with kaki means Nikita’s Gift is 75% kaki.
@tonyOmahaz5 spoke with Jerry Lehman as shown below.
"was amazed that my NG has seeds and sought answers from Jerry Lehman.
Jerry,
I am a little puzzled why one of my Nikita’s Gift fruit had 2 seeds and I have no Asian male persimmon. The only other Asian persimmon that had fruit for the last 2 years was Ichi Kei Ki Jiro. I tested the seeds by placing them in a glass of water and they sank to the bottom and that showed me that they are viable. I placed the seeds in the frig and will plant them in pots next spring. Could NG has male flower? Thx
Hi Tony,
Nikita’s Gift (Nikitskaya Bordovaya) is a intraspecies hybrid of American X kaki. Most such hybrids produce few viable seeds. And when they do it can be by either of the hybrid’s parent’ species.
The seeds from your tree are most likely N. G. x virginiana. There is a very very remote possibility it is apomictic, but all my trees from seeds from Rosseyanka and Nikita’s Gift are very different, therefore almost assuredly back crosses to virginiana.
I have never seen any male flowers on either of my Rosseyanka or Nikitskaya Bordovaya trees.
Jerry"
See also
"Hybrid Persimmon
Interspecific hybrids of Diospyros virginiana and Diospyros kaki
Rosseyanka / Rossiyanka - First hybrid persimmon
PARENTAGE: no. 213 D.v. × form 48 or 145 D.k.
BREEDER: A.K.Pasenkov, 1958
HARDINESS: -13F
Nikita’s Gift / Nikitskaya Bordovaya
PARENTAGE: open pollinated seedling of Rosseyanka
BREEDER: Oleksandr Kazas, 1975
HARDINESS: -10F
JT-02 (Mikkusu)
PARENTAGE: Josephine D.v. x Taishu D.k.
HARDINESS: -22F
FLAVOR:
Kasandra
PARENTAGE: Great Wall D.k x Rossey 2
HARDINESS: -16F
FLAVOR: Many people report it being their favorite tasting persimmon cultivar. Brix 21
Holds fruit until picked
Ripens at the same time as JT-02
NB-02 (Zima Khurma)
PARENTAGE: Nikita's Gift × Taishu
HARDINESS:
FLAVOR:
Dar Sofiyivky / Gift of Sofiyivka - earliest hybrid
In the hybrid progeny from free pollination of the ‘Kolhospnytsia’ cultivar with the American persimmon D.virginiana in the genealogy, a new cultivar ‘Dar Sofiyivky’ has been selected. It combines increased winter hardiness with good fruit quality, early fruit production and early ripeness.
Aim. Creation of new domestic persimmon cultivars (Diospyros spp.) adapted to the soil and climatic conditions of Ukraine will contribute to the introduction of new fruit plants into the industrial horticulture that combines high productivity and fruit quality, enriches the assortment of food products and improves the components of rational alimentation. Methods. Field studies of the persimmon species, cultivar and form collection, hybridization and station testing of hybrid seedlings have been conducted in the orchards of State Enterprise Experimental Facility “Novokakhovska” of Institute of Rice of the National Academy of Agrarian Sciences of Ukraine (Kherson region). In vitro seed germination of and two-year hybrid persimmon seedlings growth has been carried out in the Department of Genetics, Breeding and Reproductive Biology of Plants of the National Dendrological Park “Sofiyivka” of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. The rest of the experiments and data statistical analysis have been done using generally accepted methods in breeding. Results. Advantages of D virginiana L. in hybridization with D. kaki Thunb. to increase the persimmon adaptability to unfavorable wintering factors have been confirmed in the extreme temperature conditions of the winters of 2005–2006 and 2011–2012. In the hybrid progeny from free pollination of the ‘Kolhospnytsia’ cultivar with the American persimmon D.virginiana in the genealogy, a new cultivar ‘Dar Sofiyivky’ has been selected. It combines increased winter hardiness with good fruit quality, early fruit production and early ripeness. In 2019, the cultivar ‘Dar Sofiyivky’ has been included in the State Register of Plant Varieties suitable for distribution in Ukraine. In vitro technologies have been used in the tissue culture laboratory of the “Sofiyivka” Dendrological Park for germination of interspecific hybrids seeds, which have insufficient germination in the field. A initial hybrid seedling has been obtained, from which the ‘Dar Sofiyivky’ genealogy is derived. Conclusions. Horticultural plant breeding, in particular persimmons (Diospyros spp.), in areas with ecologically different contrasting conditions within the framework of a single program to increase the adaptability of plants and the quality of fruits is promoted to accelerate breeding and expand the northern border cultivation of thermophilic fruit crops."
Lets review what we know and try to figure out the correct percentages.
@jrd51 the parent according to my research is Kolhospnytsia.
1.Rosseyanka = DV x DK f1 =50%
2.Nikita’s Gift = f1x DK = f2 =75%
3.Kolhospnytsia = f2×DV=f3
4.Dar Sofiyivky =f3 x dv = f4
So if I follow this properly, “Sophie’s Gift” is not 6.25% DV or 12.50% DV as suggested in some spots above but rather 81.25% DV. Said differently, Nikita’s Gift is 75% Kaki but this proportion gets cut in half twice, so Sophie’s Gift is 18.75% Kaki. That’s close to the 12% you suggested earlier.
Based on this, we should not be surprised that Sophie’s Gift is cold hardy. But we should be pleasantly surprised if the fruit is more like “small Kaki” than DV, as reported.
I think where everyone got that 12.5% number was they incorrectly assumed it was all simple crosses which is far from the case. Another thing worth mentioning is most people say the first f1 cross wasnt A+ fruit.
This is what people think on % but not how it is
F1 50%
F2 25%
F3 12.5%
My suspicion is it could be even more complicated on the crosses than we know. I had a very difficult time locating the parent of sophies gift. Many mentioned nikitas gift but skipped over to sophias gift as if there were only 3 trees total to discuss. Honestly most websites dont mention anything at all.
Rosseyanka 2 does not bear male flowers.
It is a seedling, 1 of the 12 seedlings of Doctor Kazas which gave the famous Nikita’s gift. 12 varieties have been created, only one revealed.
Of these remaining 11 seedlings, many were also interesting. 6 are lost or not located.
Doctor Kazas gave one of these seedlings to Mr. Zayat (wrong spelling, but I don’t remember how it is spelled). This gentleman was a breeder of peach trees. He put this tree in the garden with other persimmons. This seedling was called Rosseyanka 2. Later, when this man died, it was Michel Zeldi who bought this garden. Michel started the selection of khakis, Rosseyanka 2 is one of the selections he used.
This tree is called Rosseyanka 2 because the fruit is similar. But it is not the same period of maturity.
It should not be confused with Rossey F2, nor with the daughter of Rosseyanka (which carries male and female, also used as a pollizer by Michel)
Regarding Rosseyanka 2, it’s not a variety that’s circulating. It is a variety more for selection which differentiates itself by being earlier.
Michel Zeldi, 2 years before his death, told me that he had only given this variety to one person before me, a person in Slovakia with whom he no longer had contact and that no one was dead either. There are perhaps only 3 trees of this variety in the world.
That is the nature of us humans we discover something great or know something , but die with the knowledge where it is then lost to time. Recognizing that i gave away my apple without patent or trademark to everyone. My crabapple is likely grown in every state in the USA now Clark's Crabapple . My life is short but now others lives will be better that come after me. People make little money that way. I’m a believer in collaboration instead of competition. My life is no worse than before. Money is always precious which leads to bad decisions regarding what is in the best interest of people. Money also attracts brilliant minds to work on things like hybrid persimmoms in the first place.
We sometimes dip lower than -20F, but it is worth consideration. This forecast below is starting today Saturday 1/13/24. The winds are gusting and snow is drifting in places. Sophies gift does not want to be here right now. January is a wicked month in Kansas. My solar panels are covered in ice for over a week now.
Sophies gift may well get grafted but we will see how many americans rootstocks i use that i have. In 2015 my lotus and americans were in waiting on a persimmon like sophies gift. 100-46 and others are very good reasons to grow americans. Once the improved types are put together we will see incredible varieties possible.
I think your answer is off topic… it was never about money.
Neither with me, nor Michel… nor others.
Nothing is lost, but no one asks.
But to share you also need to have wood.
Do not confuse having with power. As far as I’m concerned, I left the tree potted. Now it will develop into the ground.
With it’s simple exchange only. So, even if I buy I don’t sell. This variety does not cost me 2 arms, if it is available, I cut it. But no one ever asked for it either.
I think you’re mixing everything up. All collectors grow by helping each other.
But in an exchange not all varieties have the same value or interest.
It might be better had i clarified what i meant by that. I was not saying you would do this , but rather there are people in this country or russia or the ukraine who would try to benefit from the work the breeder did. It is best to distribute something even if it is not yet perfect. Sometimes the breeders need to make money with a patent to recover investments which i understand, but a trademark is very different. My plan was to quickly distribute clarks crabapple before anyone could try to monetize it. @39thparallel grafts it and sells it but anyone is free to do anything with it including distribute, trade etc… Nikitas gift if trademarked would slow down distribution of the variety. If a plant is valuable i get it out there before it becomes another lost variety. There are thousands of lost varities. It is seldom intentional. We will ultimately import better persimmons but look at what they are doing already. As an example lets say we want the 12 persimmons we would start here How to get an import license or permit | USAGov
This is not you or the grower in this case it is a import regulation and people who attempted to trademark a variety. The 12 persimmons are now half that if even that many and these people would do it again. Half his work or more is lost already. Many just say thats just business. Inport fees are around $10,000 per plant.
" was bred in Ukraine at Nikita Botanic Garden by crossing our native Diospyros virginiana with Diospyros kaki. It has the flavor of American persimmon but more vigor and larger fruit and leaf size like Japanese persimmon. Officially, the cultivar name is ‘Nikitskaya Bordovaya’, but Northwoods Nursery trademarked the name NIKITA’S GIFT; therefore, I’m following the practice of capitalizing the name to indicate name protection since the Americanized name is not a cultivar."
I realize people are trying to slow the spread of the variety now but look at the last line and the status
Trademark Events
Event Date
Event Description
2018-11-17
NEW APPLICATION ENTERED IN TRAM
2018-12-02
NEW APPLICATION OFFICE SUPPLIED DATA ENTERED IN TRAM
2019-02-19
ASSIGNED TO EXAMINER
2019-02-22
NON-FINAL ACTION WRITTEN
2019-02-22
NON-FINAL ACTION E-MAILED
2019-02-22
NOTIFICATION OF NON-FINAL ACTION E-MAILED
2019-09-20
ABANDONMENT - FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE
2019-09-20
ABANDONMENT NOTICE E-MAILED - FAILURE TO RESPOND
In my mind this was not their variety or should not have been within their rights to trademark or attempt to slow down our hobby of trading wood. I would encourage someone to charge for a persimmon they grew and i would buy it but i see trademarking someone elses work as dishonest. They would do it with Rosseyanka 2 if they knew the value. They trademark and withhold distribution. I realize your are not the one who attempted the trademarking. The trademark was not successful
Zima khurma =NB-02 Persimmon bred out of Nikitskaya Bordovaya, cold hardy and good producer of orange medium to large size fruit that ripens Late-season on a semi-vigorous tree. Has low spreading growth habit and is a beautiful specimen in the fall. Trees are very cold hardy tested down to minus -16.4 F for a long time. This cultivar was bred in Japan and brought to America by Jerry Lehman of Terre Haute, Indiana. Zone 5b to ZONE 8, tested to -16 F.
My goal is to take Dar Sofiyviky one step further by cross it with Jerry Lehman male hybrid persimmon 400-5 which was the offspring of Rossyanka male crossed with open pollinated male D. Virginiana in his orchard that survived -33F Polar Vortex in Omaha several years ago. Hopefully the offsprings of Dar Sofiyviky will inherited a more cold hardy than -20F of Dar Sofiyviky. It got to be tough in my z5. If successful then I will pass on the scion woods to anyone that wanted it. Also, to make sure and plant the union a foot below ground just in case it died at ground level due to extreme cold like the polar vortex and guarantee a resprout of the grafted cultivar.
I’m really impressed with the work you and Cliff are doing! @Arhus76 having that male from the original cross might be something your interested in. I’m very interested in your latest work Tony. We need to get together sometime soon once your settled in at the new house.
LOL. How can we not be confused? As you report, Rosseyanka 2 is not Rossey F2, which is not . . . Not your fault, of course. Reality is confusing.
My notes, based on what I’ve read somewhere in this forum, state that David Lavergne used “F2 Rosseyanka male” as the pollen donor in crosses with Saiyo, Keener, Honan Red, and Great Wall to produce respectively X1, X2, X3/Russian Red, and Kasandra. @clarkinks refers to this pollen donor (above) as Rossey 2.
Are my notes correct?
And if so, where does “F2 Rosseyanka male” fit into your description above?
Yes, thats what I referred to before opting NOT to graft NB-02 Zima Khurma. Maybe the wood will endure until spring. Interesting that Cliff lists it as late and then shows it ripening early Sept.! Anyone else able to corroborate actual ripening time? If its early Sept there, itd likely be early Oct here, which is ideal.
Journey might get smoked too. I should have temps similar to