WSU have apparently sequenced samples of Turley, Winesap and Red Limbertwig. Which is likely not the same as Red Royal Limbertwig which they’ve presumably not yet received samples to sequence.
Turley appears to be the “child” of Winesap + Rome Beauty. Neither “parent” of Red Limbertwig have been sequenced by them apparently so “unknown”. Winesap also has apparently been sequenced and neither “parent” has been yet so they’re also “unknown”.
Would be nice if a few folks sent in samples of Black Limbertwig for sequencing. If it turned out to be identical to Winesap they’d presumably add it to this spreadsheet as a synonym. I’d suspect it is it’s own distinct cultivar though…
Hopefully this AI explainer of Phenotype versus Sport is correct and helpful:
1. Phenotype (The Physical Expression)
A phenotype is simply the observable physical characteristics of an organism. It is the combined result of the plant’s genetic code (genotype) and its environment.
Examples: The weeping growth habit of a tree, the red color of an apple, or the high sugar content of a fruit are all phenotypes.
Every single plant has a phenotype, and two plants with the exact same genetics can display different phenotypes if grown in different climates or soils.
2. Sport (The Genetic Event)
A sport (or “bud sport”) is a specific spontaneous genetic mutation that occurs in a single somatic cell of a growing plant. When that mutated cell multiplies, it creates a branch, flower, or fruit that looks completely different from the rest of the parent plant.
Examples: A single branch on an all-green shrub suddenly growing variegated striped leaves, or a single branch on a peach tree suddenly producing smooth-skinned nectarines.
A sport is the cause of a brand-new phenotype emerging on an existing plant.
Note that WSU has this note on their site about sports:
We cannot distinguish among sports : Sports of cultivars cannot be distinguished by our DNA fingerprinting methods, as the tiny differences in the DNA of any sport from its base cultivar are too specific. So, for example, Gravenstein, Red Gravenstein, and any other Gravenstein sport will have the same DNA profile from our testing and the result of testing any of these will just be Identified: Gravenstein . Similarly, Ben Davis, Black Ben Davis, and Gano effectively have the same DNA profile and so the DNA test result will just be Identified: Ben Davis .
I don’t believe they’re implying that Cosmic Crisp and Enterprise are anything other than distinctly separate cultivars. In fact they’ve sequenced both:
Preferred name
Common Synonyms
Parent 1
Parent 2
Triploidy
Cosmic Crisp (WA 38)
Enterprise
Honeycrisp
Enterprise
PRI 1661-2
Co-op 7
Per their spreadsheet Enterprise is the “child” of PRI 1661-2 + Co-op 7. Cosmic Crisp is the “child” of Enterprise + Honeycrisp.
I was picking on Cosmic Crisp as an example. I do not see where they have any authority to wipe out known cultivars simply on the basis of a far from complete genetic test. Yes they are free to eliminate trees from their collections.
I take that to mean that they’ve had a tree growing in their orchard for years that they were originally told, and absolutely believed, to be named “Apple A”. They perhaps grafted and sold trees named that, cut and provided scions of, etc.. Only to later learn that that’s not what it is, it’s actually “Apple B” per DNA sequencing and sequence comparisons.
So to my understanding Horne Creek is not saying that “Apple A” and “Apple B” are the same thing.. Nor that “Apple A” is invalid and never actually existed.. or anything of the sort. Simply that they had a mislabel and what they once thought they had, turned out to be something else. Good chance multiple other people are growing actual “Apple A” trees, sourced from someone other than Horne Creek.
Totally agree… They had an entry on their website listing “Apple A” and all of it’s traits and characteristics.. Only to learn later that the correct name for it is “Apple B”. Instead of removing it from their website entirely they left the picture and name and simply changed the description to “See Apple B”. Which is confusing..
One apple that has disappeared from the list is the Golden Harvest. DNA testing came back as a Golden Delicious. I tasted the Golden Harvest at Horne Creek and I’ll say if this is a Golden D, it was the best one I’ve ever eaten. Perhaps it was a seedling or sport. I wish I could get my hands on one and graft it on my Starkspur GD and compare. My Starkspur drops too quickly and it’s a rare occasion full ripeness is ever reached. I haven’t had the opportunity to grow and familiarize myself with other strains.
Sure sounds like it may be a Golden Delicious sport then.. If so I wish they wouldn’t remove it, it’s still it’s own unique variety. It’s just that DNA “fingerprinting” can’t tell them apart.. Does NOT mean they’re identical in every way..
You recently mentioned a more complex (and expensive) DNA test/sequencing, I wonder if it can distinguish sports versus the original?
The DNA tests being conducted are not simple tests. They are full tests.
HC won’t be ripping out any trees due to recent revelations
HC attributes most of the duplicate trees to mislabeling. Some contributors did better than others.
HC plans to test every tree in the orchard.
They do not sell scions anymore. Custom graft requests must be submitted before Dec 31. If someone wants a very rare ore hard to get apple like a Jim Day, I suppose I could order the tree, plant it, then slice and dice scions.
I will likely defer my wants from HC another year. I have 8 varieties that will complete our collection. 10 if we decide to include hapless “Bart” and “Winter Horse”. Both linked to Georgia. Otherwise we definitely will buy:
Atha
*Clark
*Coffee Seedling
*Mrs.Bryan
Schumacher
Sheepnose
*Striped Sweeting
*Taunton
Starred ones being Georgia origin. If Mr.Brown can provide “Choking Sweet” in 2027; we will likely get Coffee Seedling from him as well.
We apparently only learned how to sequence DNA in 1977. So there are probably still a ton of mysteries about it that mankind doesn’t fully understand yet. One of these days perhaps…