I’m very satisfied with proceeding forward. Thank you, Darrel, thank you guys.
Darrel, we need genomes to advance science to make this super-easy.
I’m satisfied what I’m gonna do.
@jrd51 - incredible thread.
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Taishu a newer japanese PCNA cultivar has one added bonus: It can be eaten in a green stage a so called “Green Kaki” is quite popular in Japan. Don’t have a long enough season? Don’t worry, you get a sweet and crunchy fruit without a pucker.
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You got any recommendations on Chinese PCNA cultivars at their hardiest moment, let me know, anyone.
Thank you.
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There is only one well-known Chinese PCNA, Luo Tian Tian Shi. Moreover it’s genetics are different than the Japanese PCNAs with very uncertain implications for the flavor of children.
Among Japanese PCNAs, Ichi Ki Kei Jiro has been good here to roughly -3 to -5 so I can testify on that one. I’ve seen reports that Tam Kam and Gwang Yang are good to -5 F but I have no experience with them.
I’m not looking for Japanese. I want Chinese.
I’m sorry, thanks, though…
"Morris Burton is involved in all of the 4 varieties that were observed to produce what Martha Davis and I call non-astringent fruit. That is some of the fruits could be picked off the tree while still firm with no astringency. Those 4 varieties were L-92, L-93, L-104 and L-104A. Morris Burton is involved in all 4 of these. L-92 and L-93 are Szukis X F-100. L-104 and L-104A are F-7 X Killen (using female pollen). Female pollen is my way of identifying pollen from pistillate trees. Early Golden,
Garretson, Killen and Szukis will all occasionally put on male flowers "
It sounds like Morris Burton is a special DV indeed…
Not to derail the progress of this thread, but I have to ask, and please ELI5- is there a genetic difference between fuyu and hachiya and saijo and chinese bred fruits to the point that they are actually a different species? I always see the distinction between American and Asian persimmons, and I understand that. But this discussion of “species within species” more or less is confusing but I’m trying to follow. That is, relating to astringent vs not. I understand the gene expression and recessive vs dominant aspect, but is there something else going on? I also find sometimes that asking simple and sometimes obvious seeming questions leads to a more fruitful outcome.
What I am getting at, if I understand things correctly, is that maybe if the right unicorn DV (maybe one of those discussed by Mr Lehman in the linked thread) is used for non astringent breeding, maybe just the right genes will be expressed and maybe a fusion of the recessive Asian and DV (whether recessive or dominant) will be enough to accomplish the hardiness and non-astringent goals desired. Maybe as there are multiple mechanisms present, not all of them need to be expressed to achieve the desired outcome.
I’m no geneticist and this is just hypothesizing on my part with no evidence to back up my thoughts. You guys are way ahead of me.
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My understanding is: Different species, no. Just variants, like blondes and brunettes. There is a significant number of genetic variations, but all within a species. Variations include (1) Do tannin cells stop developing in spring? (2) Are tannins sensitive to alcohol/CO2? (3) Do seeds produce ethanol?
I’m intrigued by the stories about Morris Burton but have to wonder why this supposed non-astringency hasn’t attracted more notice before now.
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It looks like China may be allowing its farmers to work on this challenge. Maybe we can see if any of our members there have any pull on research…
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I think as the thread noted, it is a smaller fruit and that might be a limiting factor in the quest for a commercially viable option.
That would be silly. (1) We grow blueberries and strawberries and kiwis and a bazillion other small fruits. (2) There is always an opportunity for improvement through cross-breeding. Like what if JT-02 was Morris Burton x Taishu rather than Josephine x Taishu? Could we have a non-astringent hybrid today? Would we care that it is the size of a plum?
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<< I think that finding someone who has done research into the specifics of “which gene does what” would be helpful in this quest. >>
This may satisfy your appetite. It’s focused on Chinese PCNA but includes plenty about Japanese too.
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I made that inference on the assumption people would be comparing to an Asian persimmon, which is nothing like DV in size. I’d imagine the “ideal” size from a marketing at the grocery store perspective would be something bigger than a plum, ideally the size of an apple or pear.
To back up this perspective - my brother and his girlfriend were shopping for pears, and he said she should buy a bag of seckel after I had given him one to try, and her response was “But they are so SMALL!”.
I feel this would be the obvious reaction for most American consumers to a tiny persimmon, even if it was the best tasting fruit they’d ever eat. Also consider the two of fruits you mentioned (blueberries, kiwis) don’t have stems to remove, you can wash and plop in your mouth. If people have to work for it with a stem, they want a good reward (big fruit).
All points as devil’s advocate because I am very excited about growing my tiny fruited DV trees 
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Yes, no worries. I appreciate an honest exchange of views.
I agree that bigger is better, OTE. For a small fruit, as you imply, it seems better to not have a central core of seeds, as we find in a pear or apple. Distributed seeds, per se, can also be off-putting, as in a pawpaw or watermelon. An inedible skin can be an issue too, as with a kiwi or tangerine. And a stem that doesn’t detach readily can be a pain, as in a strawberry. But all of these may be acceptable burdens if the fruit is really tasty. And none of them is as repelling as astringency, which we often accept as a manageable challenge.
So what’s the ideal? I’d aspire to a decent sized, non-astringent, tasty, seedless fruit with a skin that is edible and a stem than removes easily. I’m guessing that a future hybrid persimmon can touch all those bases, except maybe the stem.
One final ray of hope: Fruit size is a trait that can be managed by selective breeding. JT-02 seems bigger than its Virginiana parent, Josephine. From what I’ve seen in the video above (Post #83, ~2:28) JT-02/Mikkusu has a size and shape more like it’s J-PCNA parent, Taishu. So maybe a program to hybridize Morris Burton x Taishu (or similar) could find a few offspring where the fruit is big enough.
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If we can actually get ahold of Taishu that is a definite possibility. If that code is cracked by anyone, please share wood!
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The germplasm repository at UC Davis holds many different types of persimmons. I noticed they have Oku Gosho, which is the male parent in many non-astringent crosses before Taishu became a thing. Some of their other genotypes might also make male flowers. They seem to be a difficult facility to get germplasm from though. Most of the ones with “Gosho” in their names seem to be non-astringent.
EDIT: Another one is Hana Gosho that Edible Landscaping used to sell. That one was also used as the male parent in some crosses made in Japan.
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Thanks for sharing @PharmerDrewee!
*At the very least, if WE can’t get ahold of Taishu, maybe our government can to share with us… A thought.
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I notice that the Chinese PCNA used in the research linked above (Post #145) is Eshi 1. So that’s a 2nd C-PCNA name.
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synergism doesn’t mean it’s a for sure path with my hopeful intentions of Morris Burton xkaki however Darrel seems to think C-PCNA have more stability I suppose when breeded with Morris Burton.
So, I will read the 15-page document above soon, but I am interested of course in any Kaki. And thanks to Andrew for a bit more information regarding UC Davis’ orchards & cultivars they might have/do possess.
It’s a very snowy day here today, so I’ve been slogging my way through the article. Here are my main take-aways.
Background:
<< To examine the PA accumulation patterns in CPCNA fruits, three cultivars, ‘Eshi 1′ (CPCNA), ‘Youhou’ (JPCNA) and ‘Mopanshi’ (non-PCNA), were used for PA seasonal change determination (Fig. 1A).
Most persimmon fruits accumulate large amounts of high-molecular-weight proanthocyanidins (PAs) in special compartment cells called “tannin cells” that cause a strong astringency sensation in fresh fruits; therefore, these fruits are inedible without artificial treatment to remove the astringency. There is a spontaneous mutant phenotype whose fruits naturally lose their astringency on the tree1, these fruits are edible without any artificial treatment after harvest. This non-astringent mutant phenotype, also called pollination constant and non-astringent (PCNA), includes Japanese PCNA (JPCNA) and Chinese PCNA (CPCNA). >>
- J-PCNA and C-PCNA have different genetics, one recessive, the other dominant.
<< The genetic difference of the natural de-astringency trait between CPCNA and JPCNA is a single dominant locus controlling in the former genotype but recessive in the latter one. >>
- J-PCNA de-astringency is associated with down-regulation of proanthocyanidin pathways as early as Week 5 after bloom.
<< Expression of most of genes (i.e. DkPAL, DkCHS, DkCHI, DkF3H, DkF35H, DkDFR, DkANS, and DkANR) involved in PA biosynthetic pathway was synchronously down-regulated from 5 WAB and was almost below the detection limit after 7 WAB in JPCNA. >>
- C-PCNA de-astringency is associated with transformation of soluble tannins to insoluble much later around Week 20 after bloom.
<< In this study, we found the astringency removal in CPCNA is in the late stage of fruit development (i.e. after 20 WAB), which is far [later] than in JPCNA (i.e. 10 WAB), however the soluble tannin in non-PCNA ‘Mopanshi’ maintain high level until full ripening (i.e. 25 WAB). . . .
Thus, we presumed that there may be a “coagulation effect” that soluble tannins converted to insoluble during late stage of CPCNA fruit development and caused de-astringency. >>
- PCA (non-PCNA) de-astringency is not discussed much, except that it happens very late – 25 WAB. There is also this cryptic comment:
<< In addition, astringency removal in soft persimmon is mainly caused by the accumulation of water-soluble pectin. >>
- Treatment of astringent persimmons with water, ethanol, or CO2 cases anoxia, which stimulates production of acetaldehyde, which tranforms soluble tannins to insoluble.
<< Soluble tannins cause astringency in persimmon. Acetaldehyde was found to accumulate significantly in the flesh following the treatment of fruits with warm water, ethanol or CO2, and acetaldehyde reacts with soluble tannins to form an insoluble gel, causing the fruits to lose their astringency. >>
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Jrd 51 I do appreciate all the time, & research you’ve put into this!
I am not going to do much reading about it at this time, but
Quick Question I assumed Japanese Kaki Had some Japonica in the breed Does it?
I could look it up , but I think it is easier to ask.
I saw this seeing if I could get a quick answer (see quotes)
and some cultivars seem to have Multiple Genes from multiple species
but I am asking in general about Japanese Kaki having D. japonica
breed somewhat in If you know?
I’d love to research this farther
but I am not trying to read stuff I am not going to use until I plan to use it.)
(quote from This article’s abstract see link #2)
#2 The persimmon ( Diospyros oleifera Cheng) genome
provides new insights into the inheritance of astringency and ancestral evolution
Proanthocyanidin biosynthesis genes were mainly distributed on chromosome 1,
and the clustering of these genes is responsible for the genetic stability of astringency heredity.
Genome-based RNA-seq identified deastringency genes,
and promoter analysis showed that most of their promoters contained large numbers of low oxygen-responsive motifs,
which is consistent with the efficient industrial application of high CO2 treatment to remove astringency
A lot of good looking science papers to look through here It seems
#1
(above abstract but a list of other links click on free article or see link below)
#2
Off topic somewhat, but about the chemicals in persimmon they taste sweet,
but fermenting them in wine they might have a high acid balance
the wine was sour, in a good way didn’t think I added to much acid
but actually Liked the other batch of wine better thin with less fruit
it is Minerally never got into the minerally white wine
maybe I should try a less bold Pinot grigio type wine
Tannin sure is good for wine, so is drying fruit
so many people over look other uses of bitterness in fruit
some of the store bought fruits at 50 cents a pound
the best one was sat until brown inside like caramel
(or Boarder line rotten or turned to vinegar like the last several in the paper bag.)
when cheap
I hope to try to experiment eating these fuyu persimmons at various stages
I agree with redsun on low quality store bought fruit
I do think others should try not to give up on them if they can find cheap
experiment at different stages or ripeness
(note one was very hard under ripe I think that could of been good to try to air dry
it has bruises though so not sure what will happen (had for over a month or 2 )