Thank you for the comparison. Breda’s Giant BG is only 1/4" larger than Royal, genetically similar, and lacks the virus. So I think for large size you meant “Large Russian”. I haven’t seen this one sold in the USA. I think the Giant in Breda’s Giant refers to the larger-than-typical tree size. Definitely not the fruit size.
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Yeah, nothing giant about it. Pretty much the same size as the other I have. Pretty sure they sell scion of the Large Russian at Fruitwood.
Great info. I was just going by the name. Good clarification on the tree being giant, Robert.
John S
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It seems some people here aren’t aware of how tiny wild medlars are. Pretty much all the clonal varieties which are commercially available truly are giant. Keep in mind that medlars are a species of hawthorn. Even the mid size selections are massive compared to wild types.
Do you know why they gave them their own genus, Mespilus, and why they have to blet, while hawthorns do not?
John S
PDX OR
They have been moved back into the same genus now. No doubt many nurseries will continue to sell them as Mespilus, but they are correctly Crataegus. There are actually many fruits in the Rosaceae which blet (including even apples) so I wouldn’t worry too much about which ones blet and which ones don’t (do any of them really not blet if left unpicked anyway?)
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For reference, I was able to find some observations of wild type medlars to share here (most of the observations on iNaturalist were actually depicting improved selections, but with some digging I found a fair number of observations depicting unimproved wild forms). Note how in addition to having fruit more the size of medium to large rose hips, many of them also have thorns on the branches.
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All of the sources that I’ve seen continue with Mespilus as the genus for Medlar and Crataegus for Hawthorn. I can’t find anything that agrees with you that it is all crataegus now. Harvard published a document describing the differences between the two genera and this document concurs. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302555751_Studies_in_Mespilus_Crataegus_and_Crataemespilus_Rosaceae_II_The_academic_and_folk_taxonomy_of_the_medlar_Mespilus_germanica_and_hawthorns_Crataegus_Rosaceae
John S
PDX OR
If I’m not mistaken, the document you’re referencing is making an argument for keeping Mespilus germanica separate from Crataegus based on linguistic history (multiple languages having a distinct common name for medlars to distinguish them from other hawthorns). Fun from an intellectual stand point, but not really worth taking seriously as a basis for determining actual relatedness of species. I’m not the one who decided Mespilus germanica belongs within the Crataegus genus, but I’m going with it because I can not dispute it.
If you want a reputable source, check out Plants of the World Online hosted by the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. They usually stay pretty up to date.
Based on my previous attempts to dig into the literature on this, my current understanding is that it would be pretty hard to justify pulling Mespilus back out of Crataegus unless Crataegus were to be broken up into many different genera (it’s currently a huge genus).
If a virus is responsible for the flavor of varieties Nottingham, Macrocarpa, and Marron™, then would a scion grafted to a genetically similar Medlar lead to the virus spreading to infect the whole tree with good complex flavor? E.g. could I infect the large-fruited Monstruese de Evreinoff with enhanced flavor by grafting a a small-fruited Nottingham scion to it?
I don’t think we have any indication that the superior flavor and texture of ‘Nottingham’/‘Macrocarpa’/‘Marron’ are due to them being infected with a virus. Even seed grown wild types I eaten (which would presumably be virus free) were far superior to ‘Monstrueuse de Evreinoff’ in both flavor and texture. In my opinion MdE is just an inferior selection, only worth growing as a curiosity for it’s large size. Even then only for collectors. It’s not just that MdE is bland, but its texture is kind of more pasty than saucy. Not really very enjoyable if you’ve already set your standard higher by tasting other varieties.
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Any comments on the flavor of “Sultan” or “Nefle Tardive” or “Breda Giant” in comparison to Macrocarpa or Nottingham or Marron?
The Macrocarpa sellers had them labeled zone 5. Breda Giant survived zone 4 Wisconsin at the University of Wisconsin Uncommon Fruit lab. Was wondering if “Sultan” or “Nefle Tardive” with their genetics similar to Nottingham and Macrocarpa and Marron™ and positive virus status and larger size than Nottingham could give me the complex favor in a bigger fruit size with a “zone 4” label.
There are also many Medlar cultivars that are genetically almost identical. But in some cases, a genetically identical cultivar has a virus that the others don’t have.
The results of one assay to assess genetic similarity is shown in figure 1 in this paper; I noticed that Macrocarpa was genetically similar to Nottingham (the graph is a dendrogram produced by a statistical methodology called “cluster analysis”; online tutorials describe how to read a dendrogram):
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283330244_GENETIC_DIVERSITY_OF_MEDLAR_MESPILUS_GERMANICA_GERMPLASM_USING_MICROSATELLITE_MARKERS
The link to a list of cultivars indicating which tested positive for a virus was in this previous post:
I can find “Nottingham”, “Sultan”, and “Nefle Tardive” sold in the USA as being acceptable for zone 4.
Note I don’t have the education or experience yet to introduce new external content to the conversation. I have to rely on other content posted in the forums.
Could either of you send me a scion of nottingham ?
I started a royal medlar last spring…mid summer a deer caused some damage (browsed the top). It came back some by fall.
You both seem to be saying that nottingham is larger and taste better than royal.
Mine is good size for grafting over.
I have a trade list in the trading post.
Thanks
TNHunter
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Think you misread on that. It’s one of the ones I’m trying to get also.
TN Hunter: If I have enough scions and I remember, I am happy to send them to you. I predict that I will have enough, but others have asked before you. I 'll see what I can do. If you can remind me in January, that will increase the likelihood that I will remember.
John S
PDX OR
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@JohnS … thanks for the offer.
I went back and read most of this thread.
It is your mention of having royal and liking it ok… until you tried nottingham… that caught my eye.
I think you said you are grafting your royal over to nottingham. Sounds like you considered nottingham to be significantly better than royal.
My royal is still quite small… i could graft it over to nottingham with one scion.
Question for you all… do you know of a good nursery that sells nottingham/marron scion.
I dont mind at all just buying some.
Thanks
TNHunter
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IMHO, Nottingham has just so much more flavor than Royal. Royal is good, sweet, sort of bland. Nottingham is tangy, wild and delicious.
John S
PDX OR
I am looking for 1 scion of nottingham… if anyone here has that.
My trade list is in the trading post.
I have bell pear, carmine goumi, mulberries, persimmons, apples, plums ,CHE, etc…
Thanks
TNHunter
Anyone growing medlars in zones 8 or 9?
Are there any low chill and heat tolerant varieties for the Deep South? 400-500 chill hours
I think the issue is disease and mold in warmer zones. I don’t like to grow fruit which require processing so I haven’t thought to try a medlar, but they stay pretty small so it did cross my mind. When I asked before that was the answer I got though.
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