Mulberry species identification

[Carld]

morus nigra leaf pattern. Location - Portugal. Age - unknown, but for sure over 100y old

[Carld]

Juju, i have 2x king james, around 3meters high, none have fruit yet

[strudeldog]

I have twice tried Noire of Spain and the plants did slow declines over a couple years. I have a Black Beauty that will be in ground 4 years this winter and It’s about the size it was when planted. It struggles out a a couple branches a foot or 2 each year and then dies back each year.

[jujubemulberry]

3meters high

that’s huge, and yet no fruit? Thanks for the clue-in, that’s really valuable info! I guess will have to forego buying it. Will probably just spend $ purchasing more standard persians, which come in 8-10 feet sizes and already prolific.

[jujubemulberry]

while yours seem to be bad news–i see you are in north georgia, so that is quite significant an achievement… having kept it alive for that long! I have the same problem with die-back with oranges and tangerines. We bought them at ~2 feet tall four years ago, and now they are even smaller! Evidently nigras are more cold-hardy than citrus. Oranges are often sold around here for 3 or more lb to a buck, so have no incentive to give them extra care/providing winter warmth.

[strudeldog]

At least Black Beauty is more hardy than my citrus which I grow as well but potted, The B.B. is in ground. 2 of those winters It reached 0F and 2F that I observed maybe lower and it came back from above graft. NDS did not. I have lost 3 Pakistan to cold as well. Unfortunately unlike your citrus I can’t just buy Mulberry fruit. I have about 6-7 other non-Nigra cultivars that I enjoy but not sure I will ever find a Nigra that likes the Southeast. I get some dieback during summer as well with unhealthy foliage.

[jujubemulberry]

I can’t just buy Mulberry fruit.

nigra berries are not sold here either(even though trees are). Perhaps not enough trees to harvest from. Came across this santa barbara, ca online newspaper, and learned about nigra berries being sometimes available, but for a premium at 20 bucks a lb.
apart from trees growing really slow, the berries are quite fragile, hence the price tag-- if at all available…

and yes, oranges and other citrus are readily available and sold for cheap around here that trying to get our citrus to fruit wouldn’t be cost-effective, so not worth the effort.
impressive that your nigra is planted directly in-ground and presumably grown outdoors without protection during winter. That is significant info in my opinion.

[jujubemulberry]

Juju, i have 2x king james

incidentally, are you growing your king james in portugal or in uk?
was just corresponding with @strudeldog about his nigras in no. georgia, and just came to me it might be a more cold- and humidity-tolerant option for a nigra(even though slow to produce fruit), since–having been named king james, and if true that it was the mulberry tree sleight of hand in lieu of albas for silk production in relatively rainy and cold england, then it may just be more adapted to humid and cold GA, SC, and northern Florida…

[Carld]

Yep, the king james are growing in north of England, maybe thats the reason! Lol

[jujubemulberry]

well, you could always blame the french for giving you the fake tree(for silkworms) which takes many years to mature, but may also thank them for giving you the fakey which happens to be a nigra and could outlive albas and rubras by hundreds of years.
and that yours grow in north of England is quite promising

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/how-to-grow/the-turbulent-history-of-the-mulberry/

[Stan]

Most of England are zones 8 (north and inland) and 9 (south and coastal areas). Summers are wet and cool (relative to the US), but winters are mild.

[jujubemulberry]

zone 8 does sound hospitable. The difference that am optimistic about is the fact that there are many nigras there that are hundreds of years old. So having lived that long, those trees must have survived several extreme winters which were several notches colder than the typical zone 8, and perhaps since before thermometers were even invented. And they seemed to have not suffered from die-back considering their sizes. The rainy, foggy conditions during summers in england are also quite encouraging, since many nurseries here say humidity is no good.

so hoping, possibly-- that the trick is to shelter nigras until they get really, really big, before planting them directly on the ground and unsheltered outdoors when growing them in southeast usa, or maybe even in higher latitudes.

http://www.london-weather.eu/article.370.html

[Chills]

I wish I had more land… I’ve been looking at this mulberry from a Michigan nursery for the past couple years. I even spoke to the owner who accurately described the differences between Morus Alba, Morus Rubra and Morus Nigra. He is certain that these are nigra.

he says that even using these as rootstock that nigra grafts will not survive the winters we see in Michigan. He also claims that these do survive and fruit here.

https://oikostreecrops.com/products/tree-crops/black-mulberry/

If I had the land I’d plant one. I’d probably then get rid of the Black Beauty I have in a pot that gives me under a pint of fruit a year (total).

Scott

[jujubemulberry]

Hi Scott, that would be awesome news if it is a nigra and that it is cold-tolerant. The peduncles seem too long and spindly to me though, but not that it matters. If the quality is that of a nigra, and will survive MI winters, then it is a class on its own and truly worthy of consideration.

[danzeb]

Oikostrees says on it’s website that the Nigra seed source is NY so who in NY is growing nigra?

[strudeldog]

Scott,

Can you share why he is certain these are Nigra? Is it based on the the bud or what? I am certainly no expert. so correct me if I am wrong but a couple things really make me doubt this is Nigra. In his general statement on NIgra " Usually the fruit is also larger reaching up to 4 inches long on some seedlings" , the fast growth rate, That doesn’t sound like Nigra to me. And just that it seems to be stating these are seed grown makes me doubt Nigra. Am I being forgetful but isn’t a viable seed from Nigra rare?

[Carld]

Hi Scott, sorry but i also doubt its a proper nigra. They are really slow growing… Not fast as he states… They dont come from seed also. I never ever ever saw a seedling one next to my centenary tree… And there is no other one in the farm… BUT as if he states, the taste is good and thats enough for you, thats ok. But is hard to match the firework and spicy taste of a proper nigra… Later on today I’ll post some photos of some of my youngest morus nigra - 3-4 y old so you can see how slow growing they are. Regards, Carl

[Carld]

Right, Fall is starting to set here and some of my mulberries are already loosing their leaves but here it goes:

[Carld]

Morus nigra King James, bought it 3 years ago as an half standard tree, hasnt grew much, hasnt fruit yet and is possibly 2.5-3m high

Another King james morus nigra, bought it last year, 2m high, hasnt grew any more also

[Carld]

2x Small morus nigra bush form in a 5L container, hasnt grew a bit for the last year - Italian variety/origin