Yes. They are also present in cherimoya, atemoya, custard apple, soursop, etc.
I wish it was that easy. The issue is that these compounds are part of the plants metabolic pathway to produce sugars. A genetic redesign of the pathway could prove challenging. It has been achieved (for unrelated reasons) with tomato.
No they did not. Or they would have had to mention it in the research paper.
Following your logic. Einstein should not have published his E=MC^2
because he didnāt start or fund a company to build nucleair bombs or power plants?
The whole point of good science is that itās independent or truthful about conflicts of interests. That increases itās trustworthiness.
Measuring knowledge or value only in direct commercial profit is a horrible idea.
ah, and the best jokes always need a full page of explanations. Maybe keep that for the lounge?
I found the article a nice read. thanks for posting Richard
Seeing that KSU grafting video from a few years ago of Mr. Peterson tweaking out and showing signs of Parkinsonism put me off the idea of pawpaws.
Whether his shaking was actually caused by the neurotoxins in Annonaceae fruit or not, I have no idea, but itās not exactly a good lookā¦
I havenāt seen any recent vid of him so maybe it was just a weird blip and heās fine now? Does anybody know? I hope he is okay healthwise.
Iām sure pawpaw in moderation is fine but it would always be at the back of my mind when eating one that I am damaging my cortical neurons (and for no good reason)ā¦ And eating fruit is supposed to be fun!
I will stick to growing white sapote, even if it is not as easy or productive in my climate, it can be done!
I am also scaling back from my annonas for this reason and starfruit on a lesser note.
However I just will never consume them in large quantities, like Iām sure Mr Peterson has done nearly his entire life. My two trees will be small forever so production will not be in excess.
Do you grow white sapote in ground? I have a lot of seedlings Iām going to try one in ground.
Annonacins kill cells on contact. They are also not filtered out by the brainās blood barrier.
Yeah they are definitely nasty things. I am years out on production of anything in this genus so Iāll have plenty of time to research for myself on exposure levels. Iām leaning towards 0 exposure being optimal, but I will likely still grow them, just not consume them in full, just a taste.
I donāt think you meant this in a meanspirited kind of way.
But i think it is quite disrespectful to talk about him in this way and publicly speculate about some oneās health.
Unless your a doctor with the right expertise. (and even than, you should know better and will probably get in trouble, rightly so) Itās best not to speculate about some one elseās health.
If i recall correctly, speculation like this. was followed by him needing to publish his health problems. (which are private, and if he wants to share them Iām all for that. But outside pressure does not seem right)
I liked the video, and am glad experts like him took the time and effort to teach others for free. I canāt help but wonder if the health speculation that followed the video. Put him off the idea of making more videoās.
If i recall correctly his health issueās where not caused by pawpawās.
Even if you think differently.
Often āthe dose makes the poisenā there are a lot of substances that in small doses have health benefits but in large doses become toxic or deadly.
And there are a lot of foods we eat regularly that have small amounts of toxic (at large dose) compounds
like solanine in tomato, potato etc (nightshade plants)
and cyanide in almonds.
I look at pawpaws the same way. Probably not wise to have the majority of your diet just be pawpaws. But the same goes for almost any food item. If you have a varied diet, your probably fine.
There are probably food items you consume today that in 20 years we will have proven them to be bad for you. (carciogenic etc)
Nutritional science is hard to do. And often measured effects arenāt that large. So eating a varied diet i think on average you do more good than harm.
Maybe pawpaws will end up doing a little harm in your diet. Maybe they end up a positive.
Most likely, only eating a few fooditems that you believe to be 100% āsafeā will be worse for your health in the long run. Than eating a varied diet with some items that might end up being slightly bad for you.
I find this to be a bit ridiculous of a criticism. We see boxers often later in age and we constantly (rightly so) speculate on their career causing their impairments. If you are in the public eye you open yourself up to criticism. Also the annonacins are known to cause Parkinsonās like conditions so itās not off to speculate someone who has consumed as many as he could potentially have had his health effects caused by his passion project. Two things can be true, he is an invaluable source on the topic, and can also be a cautionary tale. It is something which has not been studied enough so anecdotal instances are basically all we have to go on at the moment. Of course youāre right the dose makes the poison, I can assume his dose is beyond that threshold, but that is indeed speculation.
I contacted an author of a pawpaw toxicity paper a few months ago. He works at the FDA. Iāll repost the quote:
"
Hi Robert,
I recently read your paper from 2015 on acetogenins on pawpaws āDetermination of Neurotoxic Acetogenins in Pawpaw (Asimina triloba) Fruit by LC-HRMSā. I plan to grow and consume the fruit, and the fruit growing community online is split on its potential harm to humans. As a health researcher, can you provide your opinion on the risks associated with chronic consumption of the fruit (a few pawpaws a day for a few months of the year)?
Thank you very much for your help!"
"In my opinion, it is safe to eat pawpaw fruits, but not the seeds, as long as itās part of a balanced diet and as long as you donāt have Parkinsonās disesses
Robert"
Mr. Peterson @RNeal addressed the concerns about his tremors raised by @Schlecht and @Gkight back in 2018 in this thread The dangers of pawpaw consumption. Of course that doesnāt mean they are safe, but that thread contains a good discussion until it heads off in some dogmatic directions. One of the things mentioned in that thread is that KSU is doing some research on which cultivars contain high and low levels of annonacins.
Irony / sarcasm has proven very dangerous for on-line communication. It is very easily misunderstood.
Even humor is fraught, partly because many people try to dress up a nasty message as a joke.
Personally, I think itās OK to talk about. He is a man with a pawpaw company, developing and selling pawpaws. If he does or doesnāt talk about his shakes thatās up to him, he does not have to tell anyone.
But it is known that this family of fruits contain chemicals that can cause Parkinsonismā¦ So to me I think it is important to talk about because it may affect other peoples health who may not know there is any risk to eating lots of pawpaws.
If there is a risk, people should know, and they can then make their mind up if they want to eat the fruit or not.
Yes thatās trueā¦ But one cigarette or being out in the sun for 10 minutes wonāt give you cancer but doing it many times over many decades is a different storyā¦
So if you are aware of the risks you are better able to protect your long-term health: wear sunscreen, donāt smoke, maybe donāt eat pawpaws, etcā¦ Which is why I think these things should be talked about more instead of shying away from it.
@haldog Thanks for the link, that is good to know. The lithium makes sense. But maybe any annonacin exposure is not exactly great if you are already dealing with something that affects your nervous system and already gives you the shakes? But Iām no doctor, of course.
The other thing about people eating it for eonsā¦ From what Iāve seen is Parkinsonism usually affects elderly people and usually after a lifetime of exposure to the toxin. But throughout most of human history, most of us would probably be dead by 60 before any possible symptoms of cumulative damage would show up.
Now we are living longer but sicker lives and it is far more common for us to be dealing with all sorts of chronic diseases in our latter years which are never much of a concern when we are young. Which is also why it is important to consider our lifestyle habits so we suffer less in our 60s, 70s, 80s and beyondā¦
It would be nice to see paw paw at farmers markets, but it doesnāt seem like something suited for a grocery store no matter how much breedingā¦ that shelf space is filled, average consumer has enough fruit for their tastes. As for the Ribes, gooseberries are very sweet and flavorful from my garden but donāt seem suited for the masses (kinda a pain to pick). Black currents on the other hand seem like they could compete with cranberriesā¦ my 2 cents.
My white sapote is in a pot right now. I only have one seedling plant and didnāt want to lose it immediately to frost while it was still small.
Now that the main stem has thickened and lignified I may plant it in-ground this year. I think there is a good chance it will die outside here but Iām willing to risk it.
I read that they are about as hardy as lemons, but nobody grows outdoor lemons here! So to grow in-ground and survive will entail protective measures during winter. I think it is doable with enough effort.
Iām honored that they cited my 2023 article in the last paragraph of page 58.
By bush pawpaw, do you mean Asimina parviflora?
As best I can tell, thatās the species I grew up eating. Well, eating is an overstatement, Iāve beaten the squirrels and deer to it twice in my lifeā¦ Same with the chinquapin bushes growing near the pawpaws, only ever got to try them a few times. I never knew you could pick those pawpaw early, Iāll have to try that this year.
Asimina parviflora is supposed to be easy to cross with Asimina triloba, so perhaps thatās a route worth pursuing. The smaller stature, heat tolerance, and drought resistance would be a nice bonus. Much smaller fruit though.
Iām debating getting a few pawpaw cultivars this fall. Might also try and get some fruit and seed from those Asimina parviflora I grew up with and grow them out too.
I did not know that, but would like to read more. Are there any sources you would recommend?
Yes that is one of the Bush PawPaws. There are a number of them which we have 2 or 3 of in Georgia.
I hope we can raise some by seed and start some in a planter and see how they do. Then as you suggest, cross pollen with our larger tree.