Definitely right. As @markalbob said, it shouldn’t make a difference.
Dax
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I can see how grafting would improve longevity for varieties that are susceptible to diseases, lack vigor, have wimpy roots, are growing outside of their ideal environment, or for some other reason are more likely to die early if left to grow on their own roots. But what about grafting purely for the ease of propagation (like in the case of pawpaws)? If there’s no apparent advantage provided by the rootstock, wouldn’t the tree that’s on its own roots be expected to live longer? I imagine there’s always some degree of risk of incompatibility, even within the same species. Or there’s the risk of an infected scion or rootstock affecting the rest of the tree, or the risk of infection during or after the grafting “surgery” itself. Wouldn’t those factors lead to a lower life expectancy unless the rootstock provides advantages that outweigh the inherent risks involved in grafting?
What you’re saying in your second post is true about it increasing risk but that would be for individual trees. That’s not the same as saying that a given tree is going to live a shorter lifespan if grafted…and for things like Pawpaw till someone comes up with a better way to propagate grafting is about the only way you get a known cultivar.
Even with things like pears and apples were some of them can be done by hardwood or softwood cuttings people are still Grafting for any number of reasons despite potential infection or incompatibility
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The whole thing about grafted tree decline sounds like a hoax to me. Older trees whether grafted or not will start producing suckers that take some energy from the whole structure. If you let the suckers grow the equilibrium moves towards the suckers and the original tree slowly declines. So the key for the tree survival is to remove the suckers constantly. No infection at play, I’m afraid.
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I have not noticed any decline myself, I have several 16-year-old trees which are doing great. I wouldn’t call it a hoax but also I don’t see any inherent flaws of pawpaw grafts, at least from my experience.
It could be that compatibility is not perfect between different varieties and so in some cases there is decline. I have noticed some varieties just don’t want to take on some stocks.
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16yrs sounds like a good run.
Assuming 5yrs to good Bering size
That leaves 11+yrs of good production potential .
And no sign of decline.!
That is well worth having the quality of the grafted varietys !!!
Thanks
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Did you plant potted trees or graft onto seedlings (from seed) directly sowed or something other.
It seems to me that most everything we’ve been talking about are failures from potted/purchased trees being transplanted to the landscape from containers. There seems to be problems with establishment of container grown stock.
Dax
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All were nursery-grafted trees I purchased either bare-root or potted.
There are so many miss-connections.
Okee-doke, thanks.
Dax
In their native habitat, don’t pawpaws spread by root suckering more than by seed? I wonder if pawpaws are just more prone than most fruit trees to die-back of the above ground portion of the plant. Since they sucker so easily, the tree usually survives to grow again. I’ve had a seedling (purchased in a pot and transplanted) that grew quickly to 5ft in three years, but then died back to the ground for no apparent reason. But the roots sent up suckers, I chose one and pruned away the rest, and that sucker grew even more rapidly and has been healthy since. It makes me think that pawpaws, both grafted and seedlings probably die back to the roots (for a variety of reasons) more frequently than other fruit trees that don’t sucker as easily.
I plan to continue grafting pawpaws because grafted trees bear fruit earlier and because I’ve personally noticed a big difference in fruit quality between my seedlings and the better named varieties. Those benefits outweigh any potential risk of a somewhat shorter lifespan of grafted trees. I always expected grafted trees not to live quite as long, unless the rootstock conferred some kind of disease resistance or vigor. Maybe planting rootstock seedlings from local populations of pawpaws that are well adapted to one’s local climate and soils is the best strategy, in the absence of any research to select superior pawpaw rootstocks. And clearly there’s still plenty of potential for making our own crosses of our favorite varieties and growing out the seeds to produce new varieties.
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except it sounds like for those who DO experience die-back, it is of the graft. Not accompanying suckers, at least that I’ve heard of. Could be that people are all sucker-free, but I suspect you’re making it more complicated than it needs to be, and there is just some pathogenic or compatibility issue, which shows in some cases and not in others.
on a similar vein, there was a thread here about a certain Geneva stock, forgot which one, and the fact it showed graft compatibility issues with a few apples, including Gala I believe. Now,
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The fact unions were brittle in some trees, and more prone to snapping is not in dispute. It happened too many times.
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That still only happened to a few cultivars
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It also didn’t negate the fact there WERE people with perfectly fine galas…the rootstock issue wasn’t 100%.
I don’t remember if they traced that back to virus or not, but it took years for this to become a document issue, let alone establish which scions had issues, and that was with apples, thousands of hobby trees and tens, or hundreds, of thousands of commercial trees. So I’m not surprised the pawpaw thing is a little (lot) uncertain yet, think how much smaller the population being examined is in terms of total number of trees, and the time-to-fail seems significantly longer, too, which would further impact your population “N”
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Yes.
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I planted 30 pawpaws two years ago from seed that was supposedly from best tasting fruit. I bought the seeds online so there’s that. I was thinking about grafting them over, but now after reading this I’m letting them grow as is. They are growing well. Some have four or five branches six inches long from last years growth.
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I tend to agree. absolutely.
Dax
In recent years there has been a huge movement of pawpaw genetics around the country, and as they require cross pollination ,and each seedling is unique ,there is great potential of new , better varietys arising from this .many of which ,I believe will appear in back yards of people growing out seedling trees.
Dreaming of the best of flavor s , fruit the size of 1/2 gal. Jugs.
Like their cousins ,sour sop, but better,
I think this is realistic .
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are their reputable sellers of seed online?
Cliff England at England’s orchard and nursery McKee Ky.
Comes to mind
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Oikos sells small seedlings at low prices… not seeds obviously but if you want to plant this year probably a better bet.
