Permethrin on fruiting trees and bushes

I got me some Permethrin to deal with sawfly larva eating my currant-family bushes. I also just found out a bunch of ants farming aphids on my Kerr crabapple tree. As I was reading the label it says that for apple it should not be used on apple trees after petal fall. That’s kind of a bummer, I wanted to use it specifically after petal fall, after the pollinators were done with the bushes/trees.

The apple are easily 2 and a half months from being ripe (Alaska, late season). Mind you, Permethrin is even used as a topical treatment for lice and scabies with some prescriptions as strong as 4% permethrin over the entire body to treat a scabies problems during pregnancy, without toxicity being noted. It also does not build in the body, quickly being excreted.

I’m researching as we speak but if somebody actually has experience with this product and wishes to chime in, please do.

And to respond to myself, I see some labels that recommend to spray after petal fall…

I also saw this on another thread:

Would you like to see the study I was writing about? It even surprised the scientists who conducted it in how much healthier and longer living were the farmers most exposed to agricultural pesticides compared to the general populations of their states.

This isn’t to say that spraying tons of pesticides on agricultural lands is devoid of serious environmental consequences. But the contribution of home orchards to those consequences, with the huge buffers between small orchards, is likely too tiny to measure. Adding the benefit of reducing the number of those large monocultural orchards, they are likely an environmental plus if the small orchard keepers are following labels.

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I certainly would like to see it.

I picked permethrin as the insecticide of choice because of the apparent low risk to humans with apparent no body build up. As I stated reading the label front to back the contradictory information began. For starters on the section for ornamentals it specifically warns not for food crops, but then you get to the part of the instructions on how to use it on food crops… this particular label says not to use after petal fall while others have directions to use after petal fall.

I just want to know how close before harvest I could spray it, not to mention that I plan on exceeding that recommendation by a long shot anyways. I care a lot about pollinators so it would be largely as a spot treatment for sawfly larva on currant-family bushes and that one apple tree with the ants farming the aphids.

I should add that here in Alaska I otherwise have very little insect pressure. I may have weather related complications to growing fruit but thank God, by far I don’t have to deal with the sort of insect pressure you guys in warmer environs have to cope with.

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I’d also be interested to read this paper

I’m an analytical chemist with experience testing environmental samples for pyrethroids. These analyses are becoming more common. Reporting limits are about a thousand times lower than other pesticides and are regularly detected in the environment. Apparently the push for low limits comes from toxicology tests where aquatic organisms are killed at very low thresholds. Regulatory requirements are new or on the way. I don’t have much knowledge of the ecology or toxicology outside of testing. But they appear to be more active and persistent in the environment than anticipated. Probably as a result of technology and methodology allowing the low level detection.

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I’m concerned about toxicity on humans and protecting pollinators.

I have a small orchard by any measurable standard, about 15 trees and about 25 bushes. As of right now only four bushes and one apple tree would need to be sprayed, that would be typical. The pollinators all moved to the raspberry patch and are not interested in the other stuff. There are no bodies of water near me. This means minimal application and reasonably away from pollinators. The only question left is human toxicity.

A subsequent summary from 1,198,129 person-years of data with an average participant follow-up period of 13.4 years found that AHS participants are healthier overall than the general population and less likely to die from all causes:
• Study participants are less likely than the general population to die from heart disease, cancer, diabetes, lung diseases, and liver diseases.
• Rates of smoking-related cancers, such as oral, esophageal, pancreatic, lung, and bladder, are lower or similar to rates in the general population.
• Overall injury deaths were lower, but deaths related to machinery continue to be higher among AHS farmers compared to non-farmers.
A few cancers are more common among AHS farmers, including prostate cancer. Additional studies are being carried out to learn more about the risk of developing these cancers.

Source: Agricultural Health Study 2012 Update

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I walk around all spring/early summer in clothes treated with permethrin. I have sprayed permethrin on apple trees after petal fall in the past. I now use Imidan. I doubt either of them are good for me or other living critters. Life’s a crap shoot.

As far as ants go, I bought and deployed a bunch of Terro Perimeter ant bait around my fruit trees with noticeable ant mounds/colonies a few days ago. No ants seen today.

I also got a bag of diatomaceous earth for the ants. People take that orally so one would hope that sprinkling it on the ants will not be that bad :slight_smile:

What is the active ingredient?

Orthoboric acid (5.0%) (e.g. Boron)

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I will never purchase Permethrin. If someone is looking for a medium-grade consumer level pesticide I try to steer them to Ortho Fruit Tree Spray.

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What’s the difference? I’m honestly curious. They are both man-made version of Pyrethroids. Permethrin in particular is even use as a topical treatment for several conditions even during pregnancy.

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Here’s the Ortho ingredients for the curious: