My 5-6 year old tree produced roughly 100 fruits in 2019 and 80 fruits in 2021. That seemed a lot. Is there any chance that thinning the crop would improve the quality of what remains?
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Just wanted to post just a snippet on my experience with the cold hardiness or hardiness in general of virginiana persimmon. We get great heat here in the summer which allows persimmon to get some great growth, but winters can be tricky. We hit -29F this winter and the high was maybe -12F for 24 hours. A good number of my persimmon are planted in a lower area, so it could well have been colder there. It’s a good test of hardiness.
I don’t have long term experience, but with the bad winter last year, my grafted trees last year that got nipped back were killed from the tops (second growth) working down. Some of these trees were 9’ tall although more whippy in form. In some cases, the second growth was totally dead. Not sure if it was the second growth necessarily, or just the way the temps. In some cases, the regrowth occurred from the lower first growth (and for at least one Dollywood, only one bud from near the original graft point woke up). I think it wasn’t just a diameter thing because I had some really good/thick diameter second growth wood (maybe 1/2"-3/4"?) that was killed back. So here, at least for winter hardiness, I prefer to graft early to get some good growth.
Also, @SMC_zone6 had mentioned this, but I think it bears repeating. For me, seed started trees have been much more reliable/successful for me. Either seeds started directly in the ground, or in cells that are immediately planted before the tap starts to poke out the bottom. I have high success with those. Seed started trees that I leave in a pot too long don’t take off as well, or even languish for years. I had no die back on my seed started seedlings last winter. It was a totally different story for purchased seedlings from Missouri and Kansas. Not sure where their trees are sourced from. Though none of them were outright killed, many were killed back from the tip to make grafting too problematic/risky.
Here are some pics to illustrate that experience. The first one encapsulates things perfectly. In the foreground, is a Missouri persimmon seedling planted 2020 which got killed back down and which I couldn’t graft this year (and this one was the healthiest of all the MO seedlings). It’s regrowing. All the Missouri seedlings had identical damage and were unusable this year. In the background to the right, is a seedling I started in 2019, grafted this year, and is currently at about 6’ tall. The 2019 seed starts in the background row were as tall or taller than the Missouri seedlings by the end of 2020.
Here is winter damage to a KS seedling. Quick and the Dead hole through it. It hardly knows that a hole has blown clear through it. I didn’t look it over close to try to make sense of it, and didn’t care to. The tree is perfectly alive though.
I think for those of us in the colder locations, sourcing seeds or seedlings from the farthest northern locations should be a consideration. The following pic would be at the extreme of non-cold hardy. A 60-chromosome southern persimmon. They generally winter kill back to the ground each winter here.
I still need to take an inventory of which of my grafted varieties suffered damage, and how much. WS8-10 was a winner though.
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This is what some of those hybrids look like right now after -17. Gora Goverla
Pamjat Pasenkova Chuchupaka Gora Roman Kosh jt-02
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That is great @ctduckhunter !! Some of mine are really starting to take off too! Hopefully we can preserve these!! 
It’s really weird how this works! For instance I have had my Nikita die back 2 winters of the last 5, at only about -3 or -5, and only the fact that my graft union is burried saved me, but this past winter undamaged at -12F, yet someone else out this way their big mature tree was totally killed. I want to graft low and then bury one plant of each of these potentially borderline hybrids like Gora and Sovietski and Rossey x Saijo and the hardy kaki types for a safety net.
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My Ichi Ki Kei Jiro from EL that was planted in 2015 died in February’s polar vortex. Our temps got to a low of -15F. I did have some sizable shoots come out above the graft, but they were knocked off on an extra-windy summer day. 
I also had a newly planted Great Wall, also from EL and grafted on virginiana rootstock, that died. I’m still kicking myself for not protecting it better. But on the positive side, the rootstock is healthy and can be grafted to a hybrid scion… just trying to decide which one.
Oh ok yeah thats too bad! I am north of you in south central KS and that Feb blast was something! For yall it was even more unusual. My Kasandra and Davids Kandy and others inground even my Nikitas Gift recieved no damage at all but another person in my area lost their bigger established Nikitas Gift.
Some of your best options for central OK are the most hardy Kaki: Inchon, Korea, and Steiermark. Also Miss Kim and maybe Tecumseh. I plan to put those inground here after I pot grow them another year to gain size and give them their best shot. Once established 2 or 3 years they will be fine for you. For the first 2 or three years I would wrap a cloth sheet around them to shield them a bit. I once lost a small Rosseyanka and Yates to only like -5 so timing and them being small a small tree can freeze off that would have done fine once sized up another year. And you probably wont get a blast like that for a very long time. But those types you had are not the most hardy.
JT-02 hybrid is among the best for mid and upper zone 6.
But in zone 7 OK I would lean toward those most hardy kaki and large hybrid like Gora Goverla and if you want a more hardy hybrid Davids Kandy or JT-02 or JBT-06 are great options you probanly can get scion from Mr Cliff at nuttrees.net
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After experiencing this past February, I’ll be conservative and get something that can survive Zone 6 winters. JT-02 is definitely on the list. Thanks for your suggestions!
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Good deal yeah you cant go wrong there! My jt-02 were also unharmed in this blast it came through here too last Feb and it didnt hurt JT-02 for @ctduckhunter either he is up northeast KS and saw -17 in the blast! I think i only saw -12 or -13. And since his young Gora Goverla also didnt get hurt with just minor protection I have hopes for it with larger fruit.
The most sure pure kaki is Inchon I have confidence in it for you and even for me since it is proven long term at Mr Englands in zone 6a as well as the best one experienced by Mr Constantine near Boston zone 6 it is #1 so far for zone 6b kaki in the -15 or a tad colder range of blasts you are safe with it in OK!
And yeah I have confidence in most of my other hybrids like Davids Kandy and the others except for Nikitas Gift even though mine was lucky this time it is borderline in the -10 to -12 range probably similar to some of the hardy pure kaki like Tecumseh or something.
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As a northern grower, I’ve come to view claims of cold hardiness with a skeptical eye. I have three admittedly skeptical questions about various supposedly cold-hardy PCNAs:
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Chinebuli. This is described here as hardy to -11 to -15 F. But originally Chinebuli must have been from Japan, the ultimate source for all PCNAs (with a minor exception in China), other than those recently released from breeding programs in Japan and Korea. Furthermore, Chinebuli is described in another thread on this forum as a synonym for Jiro. One way or other, Chinebuli must ben a synonym for some vintage Japanese PCNA. Does anyone have any evidence – for Jiro or otherwise?
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20th Century is described here as nearly as cold hardy as Chinebuli. But if 20th Century has been growing in Maryland for ~50 years, it can be only one of 6 Japanese PCNAs extant a century ago. Does anyone have any guesses which?
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Tam Kam is described as a Korean PCNA, hardy to -8 to -11 F. It is well known that all vintage Korean PCNAs originated in Japan prior to WWII. It seems that Tam Kam can also be only one of 6 vintage Japanese PCNAs. Any guesses?
I’m with you. My list is general and based on the best (and varying) experiences and reports I have been able to gather. But many things can greatly affect this. For instance, here in kansas my Nikita’s Gift I had bad damage one winter at around 0F or not colder than -3F if memory serves right, and another winter no damage at all at -12F which was that blast that went down to TX and froze them out and killed similarly hardy persimmons down in texas to the ground this past Feb at not nearly as cold of Temps. So with so many factors, estimates to help people have an idea of what may work, or what to try planting, can only be general at best. Its something I wished I’d had when I was starting to try to find direction, so maybe it will help someone else.
Yeah as far as the PCNA types, I dont have your answers. Maybe Mr Cliff or someone will chime in.
But I wouldnt recommend any of those in most of 6b except maybe the mildest south parts, with protected micro-climate. And according to experiences others have shared, Chinebuli is your best bet in that micro-climate. But I could see it getting killed even a zone further south in an unusual event, especially if it is in an exposed location.
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Thanks. I really appreciate your effort and didn’t mean any criticism. I realize that the data wasn’t all or even mostly yours. And anyway, some data is almost always better than no data.
Furthermore, as you point out, every single observation could be exactly right but somewhat misleading. As I’ve posted elsewhere here recently, the emergence of trees from dormancy in spring may interact with cold temperatures in spring to damage trees. That damage can be wrongly attributed to absolute cold temperatures months prior.
p.s. I’ve had great success here so far with Ichi Ki Kei Jiro. I don’t feel any compulsion to plant another PCNA. I’m just curious.
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Evidently, at least one Chinebuli died in a winter no worse than -9 F.
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Makes sense 
Yeah you have a real good point about spring damage.
I wish we had more data on vegetation times of cultivars on standardized rootstock in the same conditions.
Any that prove slower to swell could really be helpful.
Its good that you have had good success with Ichi. What is the lowest temps you have seen so far with it?
The trees were planted in 2015. I just did a quick review of temps for Dec/Jan/Feb 2015-16 thru 2020-21. In 2015-16, the low in nearby Providence was -2 F. The trees, very new, suffered severe dieback. In 2016-17, +5 F; there was no material damage. In 2017-18, -3 F; there was no damage. Since then the lows never penetrated 0 F and there has been no damage.
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Oh ok thanks for the report!
Yeah I have heard of several similar reports on Ichi, but they vary a lot so I didnt include Ichi on my list but it could be similar to Chinebuli.(in cold hardiness)
The best report, is that a young Ichi tree about 5 or 6 years ago in that polar vortex received significant dieback of the top 2/3 at -15F but quickly recovered in z6b and has been fine since then with milder temps.
In general, it takes at least 10 years to evaluate any given variety of fruit and for true cold hardiness, more than that because spring freeze mortality is a very difficult issue to gage- that is determining what temps killed a tree at what phase of their winter hardiness.
I’m not very interested in reports of persimmon trees surviving a few seasons of cold weather- what I want to know is what varieties have proven productive in the long run and where. I dream of growing non-astringent persimmons in my S. NY Z6 but right now I assume all Kakis are dicey without winter protection. Perhaps I should again try to grow a Fuyu type as I grow my productive fig trees- with winter protection. For that, only early ripening is essential.
What is the earliest ripening, high quality, non-astringent variety I can purchase? Who is the best supplier?
If you can answer these questions I will be grateful to you. I’m too old to be a fruit pioneer any more- I still have plenty of sense of adventure, but limited time.
Meanwhile, I will relish the flavor of my native types, spitting them out when I pick one still too astringent.
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True. The only kaki I’d probably consider worth trying that far north is Inchon. And it is astringent.
A few others may would work but are probably a bigger gamble.
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What is a good source for Inchon? I recently planted Great Wall against a south facing stone and cement wall that abets a hill on the north side. Non-astringent are my gold-standard, but I still enjoy mushy persimmons. I’m also serious about wanting to know the earliest ripening, high quality Fuyu. Ed. Land. seems to list the most common commercial Fuyu type as also the earliest in their collection.
Meanwhile I satisfy my Fuyu cravings by buying a few from Trader Joe’s and a nearby Asian market (the latter has the best price). I don’t buy much other fruit and eat frozen fruit from my orchard during winter and early spring.
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According to Mr Cliff he has had the best longbterm success with Chinebuli.
But hes had dieback too.
I’d lean toward hybrids JT-02 and Davids Kandy and for kaki start with Inchon, then maybe add Korea or Steiermark or if you want to try Chinebuli pick a good microclimate.
I would try Mr Cliff for scion. If my young graft was bigger Id send you some!
That might work. Great Wall has a good name at Wye. But its not near as hardy as Inchon or Korea.
Thats a good option really. Yeah I wish I had the data you are looking for but yeah Maybe someone can chime in.
If I was real serious about growing a NA kaki I would plant Chinebuli(or maybe one of the others if I found an earlier ripening one), and build a 8ftx8ftx8ft frame around it, that every Dec-Feb I would cover with white Tyvec or white frost blanket or something. People in zone 7 can raise even citrus that way with a small heater or heat lamps
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