After experiencing this past February, I’ll be conservative and get something that can survive Zone 6 winters. JT-02 is definitely on the list. Thanks for your suggestions!
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Good deal yeah you cant go wrong there! My jt-02 were also unharmed in this blast it came through here too last Feb and it didnt hurt JT-02 for @ctduckhunter either he is up northeast KS and saw -17 in the blast! I think i only saw -12 or -13. And since his young Gora Goverla also didnt get hurt with just minor protection I have hopes for it with larger fruit.
The most sure pure kaki is Inchon I have confidence in it for you and even for me since it is proven long term at Mr Englands in zone 6a as well as the best one experienced by Mr Constantine near Boston zone 6 it is #1 so far for zone 6b kaki in the -15 or a tad colder range of blasts you are safe with it in OK!
And yeah I have confidence in most of my other hybrids like Davids Kandy and the others except for Nikitas Gift even though mine was lucky this time it is borderline in the -10 to -12 range probably similar to some of the hardy pure kaki like Tecumseh or something.
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As a northern grower, I’ve come to view claims of cold hardiness with a skeptical eye. I have three admittedly skeptical questions about various supposedly cold-hardy PCNAs:
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Chinebuli. This is described here as hardy to -11 to -15 F. But originally Chinebuli must have been from Japan, the ultimate source for all PCNAs (with a minor exception in China), other than those recently released from breeding programs in Japan and Korea. Furthermore, Chinebuli is described in another thread on this forum as a synonym for Jiro. One way or other, Chinebuli must ben a synonym for some vintage Japanese PCNA. Does anyone have any evidence – for Jiro or otherwise?
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20th Century is described here as nearly as cold hardy as Chinebuli. But if 20th Century has been growing in Maryland for ~50 years, it can be only one of 6 Japanese PCNAs extant a century ago. Does anyone have any guesses which?
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Tam Kam is described as a Korean PCNA, hardy to -8 to -11 F. It is well known that all vintage Korean PCNAs originated in Japan prior to WWII. It seems that Tam Kam can also be only one of 6 vintage Japanese PCNAs. Any guesses?
I’m with you. 
My list is general and based on the best (and varying) experiences and reports I have been able to gather. But many things can greatly affect this. For instance, here in kansas my Nikita’s Gift I had bad damage one winter at around 0F or not colder than -3F if memory serves right, and another winter no damage at all at -12F which was that blast that went down to TX and froze them out and killed similarly hardy persimmons down in texas to the ground this past Feb at not nearly as cold of Temps. So with so many factors, estimates to help people have an idea of what may work, or what to try planting, can only be general at best. Its something I wished I’d had when I was starting to try to find direction, so maybe it will help someone else.
Yeah as far as the PCNA types, I dont have your answers. Maybe Mr Cliff or someone will chime in.
But I wouldnt recommend any of those in most of 6b except maybe the mildest south parts, with protected micro-climate. And according to experiences others have shared, Chinebuli is your best bet in that micro-climate. But I could see it getting killed even a zone further south in an unusual event, especially if it is in an exposed location.
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Thanks. I really appreciate your effort and didn’t mean any criticism. I realize that the data wasn’t all or even mostly yours. And anyway, some data is almost always better than no data.
Furthermore, as you point out, every single observation could be exactly right but somewhat misleading. As I’ve posted elsewhere here recently, the emergence of trees from dormancy in spring may interact with cold temperatures in spring to damage trees. That damage can be wrongly attributed to absolute cold temperatures months prior.
p.s. I’ve had great success here so far with Ichi Ki Kei Jiro. I don’t feel any compulsion to plant another PCNA. I’m just curious.
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Evidently, at least one Chinebuli died in a winter no worse than -9 F.
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Makes sense 
Yeah you have a real good point about spring damage.
I wish we had more data on vegetation times of cultivars on standardized rootstock in the same conditions.
Any that prove slower to swell could really be helpful.
Its good that you have had good success with Ichi. What is the lowest temps you have seen so far with it?
The trees were planted in 2015. I just did a quick review of temps for Dec/Jan/Feb 2015-16 thru 2020-21. In 2015-16, the low in nearby Providence was -2 F. The trees, very new, suffered severe dieback. In 2016-17, +5 F; there was no material damage. In 2017-18, -3 F; there was no damage. Since then the lows never penetrated 0 F and there has been no damage.
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Oh ok thanks for the report!
Yeah I have heard of several similar reports on Ichi, but they vary a lot so I didnt include Ichi on my list but it could be similar to Chinebuli.(in cold hardiness)
The best report, is that a young Ichi tree about 5 or 6 years ago in that polar vortex received significant dieback of the top 2/3 at -15F but quickly recovered in z6b and has been fine since then with milder temps.
In general, it takes at least 10 years to evaluate any given variety of fruit and for true cold hardiness, more than that because spring freeze mortality is a very difficult issue to gage- that is determining what temps killed a tree at what phase of their winter hardiness.
I’m not very interested in reports of persimmon trees surviving a few seasons of cold weather- what I want to know is what varieties have proven productive in the long run and where. I dream of growing non-astringent persimmons in my S. NY Z6 but right now I assume all Kakis are dicey without winter protection. Perhaps I should again try to grow a Fuyu type as I grow my productive fig trees- with winter protection. For that, only early ripening is essential.
What is the earliest ripening, high quality, non-astringent variety I can purchase? Who is the best supplier?
If you can answer these questions I will be grateful to you. I’m too old to be a fruit pioneer any more- I still have plenty of sense of adventure, but limited time.
Meanwhile, I will relish the flavor of my native types, spitting them out when I pick one still too astringent.
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True. The only kaki I’d probably consider worth trying that far north is Inchon. And it is astringent.
A few others may would work but are probably a bigger gamble.
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What is a good source for Inchon? I recently planted Great Wall against a south facing stone and cement wall that abets a hill on the north side. Non-astringent are my gold-standard, but I still enjoy mushy persimmons. I’m also serious about wanting to know the earliest ripening, high quality Fuyu. Ed. Land. seems to list the most common commercial Fuyu type as also the earliest in their collection.
Meanwhile I satisfy my Fuyu cravings by buying a few from Trader Joe’s and a nearby Asian market (the latter has the best price). I don’t buy much other fruit and eat frozen fruit from my orchard during winter and early spring.
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According to Mr Cliff he has had the best longbterm success with Chinebuli.
But hes had dieback too.
I’d lean toward hybrids JT-02 and Davids Kandy and for kaki start with Inchon, then maybe add Korea or Steiermark or if you want to try Chinebuli pick a good microclimate.
I would try Mr Cliff for scion. If my young graft was bigger Id send you some!
That might work. Great Wall has a good name at Wye. But its not near as hardy as Inchon or Korea.
Thats a good option really. Yeah I wish I had the data you are looking for but yeah Maybe someone can chime in.
If I was real serious about growing a NA kaki I would plant Chinebuli(or maybe one of the others if I found an earlier ripening one), and build a 8ftx8ftx8ft frame around it, that every Dec-Feb I would cover with white Tyvec or white frost blanket or something. People in zone 7 can raise even citrus that way with a small heater or heat lamps
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I’m growing David’s Candy against that same wall. I will let you know how it does. It survived its first mild winter, at least. I’ve been ordering trees to make this happen from England for years now.
I used to have a Saijo that I wheeled into my well house during winter, but it took too long to produce fruit so I left it out one harsh winter. The Saijo died and I grafted a native on the vigorous rootstock and it that now produces delicious fruit (the ones that don’t sustain their astringency even when soft).
A non-astringent type (Cheng?) England sold me produced decent but astringent fruit until it died- and I was taking it into protection during winter. I probably allowed it to bear too much fruit too young (out of carelessness more than greed).
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Good deal! I will be interested in your reports! I hope it produces for you! I have one from Englands and a 2nd backup I grafted. Sounds like a good one!
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Oh ok which type is it? I hear good stuff on some of them
@tonyOmahaz5 grows Tam Kam non-astringent in pots that he shelters over the winter. I’m trying the same thing with Chinebuli here in New Hampshire, but that’s still on year 0. It’s looking to be a mild winter, so I’m not too worried about this year, but we’ll see how it does long term.
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Well, if Chinebuli is Jiro (see my question above), then yes. IKKJ is a budsport of Jiro. But it seems to come out of dormancy a little slower and ripen a little sooner.
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I’ve read that persimmons are especially prone to budsports, so maybe we’ll get a real winner if we keep pushing our luck with current varieties.
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