Persimmon grafting: Level of Difficulty

I’ve never heard that. They should be completely compatible. @JoeReal has/had a multi-grafted persimmon with something such as 50 cultivars on it. That was one of his two trees. Joe, you’re starting with another Asian persimmon again to do the same too, right?

Dax

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Yes Dax. I have started with another one

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Graft a hybrid first.

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Thanks. Can I graft both the hybrid and the native scion at the same time, like an interstem?

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You can try. My rule of thumb is that the interstem should be 4” or more, otherwise the incompatibility if any, would be felt by the scionwood.

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I hate to disagree, but I would think a thin layer of cells would be all that’s needed to overcome incompatibility. My understanding of incompatibility issues leads me to believe that cell antigens are responsible for the “rejection,” whether that’s a full or partial rejection. To dwarf a tree using a dwarf interstem is another question. I would say a longer interstem would be needed and the research has been done to show this.

Here ond160103.pdf (165.3 KB)
is a pdf. from Corvallis. If you have some research showing otherwise I would love to read through it.

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Dwarfing is different than incompatibility. I am speaking from experience and those of other master grafters. So this something that should be looked at in research. I have grafted together 30 different distinct prunus species and intraspecifics in one tree for a total of 150 cultivars. Long term incompatibility crept in if the interstems are shorter than 10 cm for incompatible species.

So I suspect that there are some chemical signals that gets attenuated the longer the stem. Could be proteins in the cambiums or phloems or enzymes or RNA’s. It would be exciting to know. The release of Superoxidases are often responsible for the rejection. If we can find a way to prevent the release of the enzyme we might be able to graft more distantly related species together.

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I think Callery pear is the best rootstock for my climate and soil. Unfortunately, most Asian pears are severely dwarfed on this rootstock and they have a short life. I believe it is a partial incompatibility issue. If the article I linked above is accurate a compatible interstem, regardless of the length, would overcome this issue. I have observed this in my own grafts. I cannot speak to prunus species since I avoid most. Persimmon are a coin toss at this point. I have read an article in the Pomona, whose author I cannot recall, mentioning D. virginiania as rootstock for D. kaki. There are no trees older than 30 years with this combination. This makes me think of a similar partial incompatibility as mentioned above with the pears. The hybrids are new territory and purely a guessing game. I longer interstem would probably be a better guess, but who really knows?

Do the prunus you speak of result in full or partial incompatibility? This is very interesting.

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Here’s a previous topic about Adara used as prunus interstem. It has links to some scientific literature.

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I dont think you need an interstem—I believe several nurseries even offer asians on virginiana rootstock

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I now grow my own D. kaki rootstocks from seed. They’re not clones so can have distinct performances from seed to seed, but is not a problem for backyard growing and our zone, and no incompatibility issues with other D. kaki. There are some long term incompatibility issues with D. lotus, D. virginiana and D. americana, maybe not long enough to see until you sell your house and move on. I see it on some trees in persimmon orchards dying out for no apparent reason.

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At least any which grow for more northern growers do. A lot of the Southern nurseries use Lotus, which isn’t hardy enough here. I’d hate to have a rootstock even less hardy than the tree, which is already borderline in my area.

For me that would be “not before a particularly cold winter kills the tree…”.

Just yesterday, I was digging persimmon suckers. These are D Virginiana suckers from a Tam Kam tree which has been repeatedly and severely damaged by the cold.

I grafted to them last spring and was surprised with how long some of their roots are. It seems that these suckers have a long horizontal root, leading away from the tree, rather than a taproot which goes down.

Here’s a pic of 3 or 4 of them.

The longest was on a Chienting graft (thanks SMC!) and about 5’ long, almost the same length as the tree is tall. Here’s a shot of it planted, which was fairly easy for a tree with such a long root. I just dug a normal hole, then a small trench for the root.

I’ve planted all 4 of them at a new rental property. When I was doing so, I looked at one of them (Yotsumizo) and said “wow- this is either my best graft ever, or there is no graft”. Later when I checked my records, I found that it was one which didn’t take and I must have clipped it off… :weary: Well, I guess I can graft it again at the site.

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I grafted my first persimmons 20+ years ago, before anyone told me that they were ‘difficult’ to do.
All I knew at that time was just a simple splice/whip graft… so, that’s what I did… 100% success(2/2).
I now do mostly bark grafts, but I think just about any technique will work. But… they do seem to require some heat to callus, so I only do them after the rootstock is actively growing.
And, IMO, the most important thing is constant, vigilant follow-up, keeping competing shoots from below the graft rubbed off. Persimmon is very persistent an aggressive about pushing new growth from below the graft. You’ve gotta check them at least every couple of days!

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I have no issue with Callery pear here in Nebraska. My Cleveland flowering pear under stocks are over 20 feet tall with about 40 varieties of Asian and Euro varieties on them. They are ten years old and their trunks are about 20 inches thick.

Tony

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Tony,

Which if any varieties have you seen fireblight?

Thank you,

Dax

@clarkinks has talked extensively about callery pears hybridisation with others in the pyrus genus. Many of these hybrids lack the compatibility issues I talk about. The pear trees grow and produce, but they are severely stunted on certain strains of callery. The growth difference is obvious when I compare callery and betulifolia, as understock, side by side. I’ve heard others mention the short lifespan of asian pears on communis or calleryana. Short is relative as mentioned above with the American persimmon understock.

No fireblight so far on my trees.

Tony

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Persimmon are easy to graft as long as the rootstock is vigorous. Here Was: Hello all, plus pics; now: bamboo discussions - #2 by JesseS is a link to my first post, scroll down to post 4. I was impatient and wanted to graft when the bark wasn’t slipping so I used a cleft graft. The wrap job was sloppy, but it is all I had on hand. I left half of the foliage on this male after doing 10 simple cleft grafts, which all took. These were all hybrid scions that put on 7ish feet of growth. This past weekend I bark grafted some kakis onto those hybrids. Plus, I grafted more hybrids and Americans onto the new male growth.

For weaker rootstocks I would wait until the tree is actively growing.

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So could one expect the long roots to put up suckers at the other end ?

Probably, if I waited longer. After all, the sucker I grafted to was the result of such a root. It wouldn’t be surprising if it just keeps going along and sending up new growth every year or two.

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