I am going to try crossing Niwot with Glenco and Born Free. Bloom time early May here. So getting close. Is the thornless gene recessive?
I guess we will find out. Iâm crossing Tahi with Sterling Black which has excellent tasting primocane berries. I probably wonât do the cross til next year. Currently plan to cross Ontario wild yellow cap with Lynnâs black to get primocane fruiting yellow caps. Iâm using Lynnâs because it is has the yellow gene as far as I know. I probably will cross Sterling with it too. Hard to say how lucky I get as the yellow produces all shades, brown and redcaps too.
The yellowcap produces very large berries really a lot larger. An amazing plant.
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Hi, Those crosses sound good to me. Both Born Free/Tahi/Ebony and Glencoe are Purple raspberries, ie have a percentage of R.idaeus in them, Glencoe has more but by crossing with Niwot you will increase the black raspberry genes percentage and are more likely to get authentic Black Raspberry flavour and primocane fruiting and thornlessness in a properly black berry.
In my experience, Thornless is a recessive gene. I have a pure Rubus occidentalis thornless, I think the thornless in this is reccessive, like it is in red raspberry, R.idaeus but not 100%. A cross with thornless red gave 100% thornless offspring. I am yet to cross it with a thorny red but will do so in my Spring. Sept-Oct.
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In the Scottish program, first priority was given to breeding for spinelessness in both groups. Two genes for spinelessness are being used: the recessive gene (s) which originated from the diploid European species Rubus rusticanus var. inermis , and the dominant gene (S Ć) (Jennings, 1984), which originated in Texas, USA from an octoploid dewberry known as âAustin Thornlessâ. Progress in breeding with each gene has been achieved by a combination of Anglo-American efforts over the past 50 years.
Recessive if working with diploids
Hi, Most raspberries are diploid, so the spineless gene is recessive. I have found that the Austin thornless dominant gene is a bit dodgy. All of the canes are thornless up top but the first 6 inches or so has thorns. With the recessive âMerton thornlessâ genes which I am working with, all the cane is thornless. (in Blackberries)
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Just found out that there is a dominant gene for spinelessness in an Australian mutation of âWillametteâ but it is unstable and inconsistent. I have this cultivar, so I will cross it to my recessive spinelss, breeding lines and see what happens.
I want a big, well flavoured, Primocane, thornless, Red Raspberry, so I can cross it with my black raspberry to produce a big, well flavoured, Primocane, thornless, Purple raspberry.
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Worth doing as most purples I hear are pretty dull as far as flavor. Mine is thorny as hell but the flavor is incredible. Better than boysenberry.
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Hi, That is encouraging. If I bred a Purple as good or better tasting than a Boysenberry, I would be very happy. The reason I am doing Purples and Blacks is because I have seen all the Red raspberry cultivars out there and there are more coming but not many Purples or Blacks.
Since I am only a very small professional fruit breeder, it makes sense to avoid competeing with the big breeders, who seem to focus on Reds.
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Sounds like a good plan. I wish I knew exact plants mine came from. As it could be duplicated.
It was a volunteer. They seem to readily cross. The plant is not super vigorous. I could easily lose it. The first two attempts at tip rooting failed. No backups yet. Itâs growing now here as we are in spring. Iâll try again this year.
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Hi, It is always a nervous time when you have a good plant but only one of them and propagation fails. I experienced that with a Thornless primocane fruiting blackberry I have. Fortunately after several tries, I managed to propagate it by cane layering.
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Yeah i thought of layering. I have air layered figs and honey berries in the past.
Try severing some roots, but leaving them undisturbed otherwise. They should form new vegetative shoots which can then be separated.
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Well luckily I have to take what I said back. I was out there in the yard and looked at the planted tip roots again. One has the smallest green bud at the base itâs alive! Yeah I got a 2nd plant if I can keep it going.
A friend in Michigan also was out looking around and found another yellow cap. He sent me a rooted cutting so I have possibly another yellow.
It too is really small but survived transplant.
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Well, Congratulations. I hope they grow well for you.
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doesnât every berry have thousands of cultivars in its lineage?
No Niwot was developed from a wild cultivar. Lineage is small. But most yes they are. I guess I really meant I was impressed with how documented the cultivar is. Many have unknowns in lineage. New Berry also has numerous raspberry/blackberry hybrids in its lineage I find interesting.
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Amateur breeding questions here:
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are there any patented rubus that cannot be used in breeding? For example, if a specific gene was patented
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what are the general steps to determine the likelihood that two rubus species can be interbred? For example, is it feasible for crossing a wild wine berry with a Caroline?
Thank you!
Itâs pretty rare for patents to cover genetics, so while the variety might be patented any offspring usually arenât. Exceptions tend to be GMOs, or cultivar/hybrid names. But Iâm not at all an expert on patent stuff so donât take my word for it.
As for crosses, the first thing to check is usually ploidy and if either parent has sterility of some kind. Generic distance and phylogeny can be a decent rule of thumb as well, but itâs a very rough indicator. Previous hybrids are a good indicator, and knowing if they were easy to make or involved thousands of crosses and embryo rescue will give you some idea as well.
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Thank you! Is there any specific database folks tend to use to find out about previous successful crosses?
Iâm finding some papers with details such as:
But am unsure if thereâs a central repository people use
