Dump the seeds in water, if they float they are no good. Most Rubus species require scarification too. Without it could take 2 years or more to germinate. Many only take a year actually.
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I posted a new article about chromosome count to the first post in the thread.
Just found this thread. Iām going to start breeding my own raspberries. Rubus deliciosus will be the main species that will form the basis, but i plan to also plant and use the following species as well:
Rubus neomexicanus
Rubus bartonianus
Rubus X āBenendenā (R. Deliciosus x R. Trilobus)
Rubus hawaiensis
Rubus odoratus
Rubus parviflorus
I found a paper describing a method for germinating Rubus deliciosus seeds that i plan to follow for the species i can only obtain seed for. Hopefully i can obtain plants /rooted cuttings whenever possible.
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Welcome to the team. Looks like your trying to breed a superior Native north American raspberry. What traits are you trying to perfect?
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Well, i recently discovered that rubus deliciosus is the native raspberry to my area, so i went out and bought one (it was hard to find). It only had one flat fruit that squished when i picked it, but it literally was the best tasting raspberry Iāve ever had in my life. So flavor is 1. It will need more domestic raspberry picking and productivity traits though to be useful, so thatās 2. It is naturally drought tolerant which is good since my area is a semi-arid high plains desert technically. We do get a decent amount of rain, but the air is dry and any plant that is not adapted dies. A reason people say it is hard to garden here.
Thatās really my main objective. Amazing flavor and dark purple fruits like the wild one. (It also makes a nice ornamental with large white rose like flowers). But with modern productivity and fruit size and picking traits. Im hoping to keep as much genetic diversity in the lines as possible, which is why I want to get the related species that are in the same sub genus. Drought tolerance a plus.
I guess all of these do not have spines or prickles, so thatās also a major plus.
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Hi all. Iāll chime in as I just picked my first R. occidentalis x R. idaeus berries. They seem to have made it through winter unharmed which was the goal. Canāt comment on the taste as the f2 seed was collected for further breeding. Next year will see further crosses with R. niveus and hopefully R. ursinus if those are finally flowering. Neither are winter hardy here, which I hope to fix.
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Drew, Tayberry and Marion do not cross easily as they do not have homologous chromosomes. (Tayberry has 4 raspberry-like sets, while Marion only has 2.) It has been done but most resulting seedlings would be sterile due to incomplete chromosome pairing. Marion could perhaps cross better with standard 2x raspberries >>> two blackberry-like sets and one raspberry-like set of chromosomes from Marion + one set from the raspberry parent. I would use a wild raspberry (not self fertile) as the mother plant for minimize self fertilization. It has been done using Silvan (6x) x rubus idaeus and yielded a fertile 4x hybrid. (although most seedligs were still infertile due to some chromosomal weirdness)
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Drew, How did your pink Irene do this year? And your yellow? You may have said elsewhere but I couldnāt find it.
Several years ago when SWD hit hard I started picking every ripe, or close to ripe! berry every day. Good ones in a basket, mushes into a bucket of water that was dumped on the compost pile a few days later. This resulted in a proliferation of raspberry āweedsā all over! Maybe thereād be a way to translate that for more controlled germination. Iāve let a few grow, should fruit next year. Sue
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I read both have 6 pairs. My info was from a research paper. Not sure I could find it again?
I remember they were the only two that were a match of the plants I had. I had no intention of breeding them together, but since they have the same amount of pairs, why not? If you have different info point me at it! Two pairs seems highly unlikely to me as Marion is a very complex hybrid. As is tayberry being an extremely unique raspberry-blackberry cross. It tastes kinda like strawberries. Low acid too, very different from other raspberry-blackberry hybrids like New Berry which has over 30 cultivars in itās lineage.
The marionberry was developed at Oregon State University in 1945 by crossing a Chehalem blackberry (a berry with native blackberry, Loganberry, and raspberry in its background) with an Olallieberry (itself a blackberry cross) and named after Marion County in Oregon. They were first brought to market in 1956.
It did OK, but has flaws. Berries are not that big, and the fall crop is super late. I doubt it meets many marketing standards. All the same it was fun. I now have a couple other yellows now, and a wonderful black raspberry cross. The first yellow Andrea, has big berries but has a sprawling habit. Very strange So waiting for a few more seasons to decide.
On your seedlings, it canāt hurt to grow them out. I have done this too, but so far have not kept any. One looked great, huge red berries that were very firm. Prolific too, but the berries were extremely acidic, that saying a lot as I love tart fruit. So I culled it. Others never grew very well.Pick the best growers. You know you want that characteristic.
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Having neglected my project for too long, I feel itās high time I jumped back into the fray. I placed an order on GRINās database with vague inklings of different possibilitiesā¦ Itās been a few days, and a wave of inspiration hit me like a freight train! So many ideas bouncing around, I can barely keep up. I really should be putting this on paper, but Iāll let this forum post count for it.
I ordered seed from Rubus hawaiiensis and cuttings of R. pentalobusā¦ Iām not sure what to do with either of them yet. I gotta check the documents again to remember R.p.'s ploidy level, but R.h. should be diploid. More closely related to the thimbleberry if I remember correctly, but R.h. can cross readily enough with the domestic raspberry. The reports donāt sound too promising, given that itās bitter tones tend to end up in the progeny as well, but maybe some backcrossing can take care of that. I tried ordering cuttings from other raspberries (red, yellow and black) and some blackberries & hybrids, but they donāt seem to have much available right now, if anything. For the time being, what I have to work with is those two, Caroline, Prime Ark Freedom and Wild Treasure. I had Black Hawk, but I lost it; I aim to replace it with Niwot and/or Ohio Treasure when I get the chance. A lot of other brambles on my wish-list, but I wonāt go into it right now.
Far more complex with possibilities are the number of strawberries I ordered. I already have Reine des Vallees Alpine and Mara des Bois (plus I recently bought an Alpine seed collection that includes Pineapple Crush, Yellow Wonder, White Soul and Ivory). I wanted to order Hawaii-4 and a chromosome doubled (4x) Mignonette, but theyāre not currently available through GRIN. What I did get to order from GRIN were several Garden Strawberries (F. x ananassa, 8x ā Fern, Aromas, Diamante, Guelph S01, White D and Mieze Schindler), one Scarlet Strawberry (F. virginiana, 8x ā Intensity), several Musk Strawberries (F. moschata, 6x ā Capron, Profumata di Tortona, 2 more female accessions and a male), one day-neutral F. x bifera (2x ā F. vesca x viridis), several Comarum Hybrids (10x ā Frel, Lipstick, Rosalyne), two F. x vescana (10x ā Sara, Rebecka), and a complex semi-fertile hybrid (8xā F. x vescana āFlorikaā X moschata). I donāt know what to expect with that last hybridā¦ F. x ananassa is the descendant of an 8x virginiana x chiloensis cross. Crossed with a chromosome doubled (4x) vesca, you get the aromatic 10x vescana (it shouldāve been 6x, Iām guessing a haploid ādoubled vescaā gamete fused with an unreduced ananassa gamete). Then crossed with 6x moschata, you get this 8x plant. Should be interesting.
What I find interesting in the potential for strawberry breeding (besides the range of flavors and textures between the species) is the ploidy hopping that might be used to bridge otherwise uncrossable species (Iām trying to avoid odd ploidy levels). Moschata, in particular, seems a wonderful bridge between the lower and higher ploidy levels, and its dioecy would simplify the initial breeding attempts. Moschata could be bred to vescana (as in that last hybrid) or a Comarum hybrid to make a highly aromatic octaploid that could be bred into ananassa. Moschata could also be bred with diploid vesca and bifera to make tetraploids; these could then be crossed with octaploids to make hexaploids or decaploids (depending on whether or not the gametes reduce). Hexaploids could be backcrossed with diploids for further tetraploids, or with moschata for further hexaploids (and so bring in new traits to the moschata genome ā day-neutral, bigger berries, greater production, monoecy, etc.). Backcrossing decaploids would yield octaploids for further crossing with ananassa, with the vescana x moschata hybrids, or with the tetraploids for further ploidy hopping. You could keep jumping back and forth between the different ploidy levels by using moschata (and any hexaploid progeny) as a bridge. All of this assuming that fertility wouldnāt turn into an issue (maybe all this ploidy hopping would turn the chromosomes into a pretzel). 
I wonder if Iām reinventing the wheel with a breakthrough someone else already had, but if I am, I havenāt actually seen this ploidy-hopping plan mentioned anywhere else.
Iāve heard of one breeding program trying to cross moschata into ananassa (link here: Berried Treasure | Science | Smithsonian Magazine), and theyāre finding it difficult to get the flavor right because of how complex the aromatic compounds are for moschata (never mind the ploidy issues). Iām thinking of trying the reverseā¦ Rather than breeding a complicated flavor into ananassa, we might breed size, yield and other traits into moschata (that is, keeping the genetics mostly moschata). We might even consider a pure moschata breeding program, though thatās outside the scope of my hybrid projects.
I havenāt given up on crossing 2x raspberry with 2x strawberry, but now Iām hoping to test 2x raspberry with 6x musk strawberry. I might get a tetraploid out of it. The strawberryās dioecy makes it easier to make the cross without having to emasculate the flowers, but its short season could complicate things if I canāt get flowering times to match up. Maybe if I develop a dioecious female day-neutral hexaploid strawberry? Too many steps for my liking, but itās an option. Day-neutral & everbearing are really the best options for the tropics. It doesnāt make sense to grow berries with one explosive harvest season when they could be bearing all year long in this climate.
Besides brambles and strawberries, I ordered Medlar & Hawthorn (Tejocote & C. monogyna) to cross with each other, as well as Quince and three Apple scions (no rootstock, Iām hoping theyāll function as cuttings, and said so in the order form). Chestnut Rose (Rosa roxburghii, 2x) to cross with the brambles, with the strawberries, and with the Apples (an alternative version of Schoenerās pomifera hybrid). A couple of Rowan hybrid scions (also as cuttings; Likyornaya & Granatnaya) and Currant seeds to test in my local climate, and several kiwi varieties to cross arguta with chinensis.
I have enough projects here to keep me busy for a lifetime. There was a point where I shouldāve stopped and I have clearly passed itā¦ But letās keep going and see what happens. 
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Glad to see you post . I have seeds planted of a cross I made . A long wait . Mine should sprout about August . I follow natureās way . Pass seeds through a chicken then plant in a pot outdoors and wait .
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My method has been similar to yours Jerry, I planted a bunch of named blackberry cultivars years ago. Most didnāt make it because of heat, drought, poor soil and inconsistent attention. I have done what I could to preserve the few that did survive, scratching the soil and forcing them using bricks to hold them down. A couple of years ago we had a new patch appear under a toothache tree, courtesy of birds. Those have been more productive and hardier than their parents. Thorny? Yes, but everything where we are either has claws, teeth or thorns! D
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LOL! Ha! I have one yellow raspberry plant from a robin. I have removed at least 20 black raspberry volunteers. Passing it through a bird works! I would have kept some of the blacks except my intentional crosses produced two nice cultivars. I talked about them elsewhere
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What did you cross on this particular attempt?
Your collection never ceases to impress me. You should think about releasing your blackcap as an official cultivar, if not commercially licensed, then at least to ARS GRIN. A primocane blackcap with good flavor and decent size is worthwhile breeding stock, and a worthwhile crop in itself, considering itās superior to fully-released cultivars. What name shall you give it?
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Iāve thinking of trying Arctic Raspberry for the breeding program. Itās a diploid, and almost seems strawberry-like in growth pattern. Itās pollen-fertile, but self-incompatible, which should facilitate some breeding combinations. First Iād need to see if it survives hereā¦ Then, can it flower without winter chill? Can it pollinate (and be pollinated) in higher-heat circumstances? If so, I could get some interesting progeny out of it, within Rubus, and with other genera.
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They wont send Arctics. I tried, they emailed me asking me to try something else for my ground cover project. The articts are difficult to clone when there busy apparently. Overall I wouldnāt dont think they are good for the tropics they the need for both sun and protection I dont think they can take the heat.
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Who wonāt send Arctics?
None of the places that sell them ship to PR, so Iād have to pass them through my relatives in Texas. I was thinking about ordering them from Logeeās for a better deal. One Green World has them at $20 each, but at Logeeās you get two varieties for the same price.
Itās worth a shot. I donāt expect much, but if thereās the slightest chance of success, Iām willing to try. Theyād be a valuable resource if successful, as would the information (that they could survive here, if so).
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Well I have a seedling blackberry that needs a pollinator . Only thing blooming with it was Niwot and Jewel . I was told by Bob Hayes they would not cross . Anyway I got berries and saved seed . Got Niwot seed planted and purple raspberry seed . My own purple . It is a bowcane type like the blacks .
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That blackberry hybrid should be excellent (and it might be primocane too, given its dominant nature in the blackcaps). Olympic Berry is considered one of the best for flavor, despite being exceedingly rare, and it has blackberry and black raspberry in its immediate heritage.
Is your purple an F1 of Black and Red? I think most of the commercial types are backcrosses to Red. How does yours taste?
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The purple is likely Jewel x Brandywine as I had no Niwot then . Good flavor IMHO . Birds planted it and bees likely did the cross .
A backcross to black rasp then? First one Iāve heard of. ĀæWhat are the flavor nuances like? ĀæHow do they compare to the flavor of Brandywine, blackcaps and red raspberries?
ā
I just placed an order on eBay for Rubus glaucus seeds, from Washington, and I found out some information thatās new to me. For one, this species is an everbearer in the literal sense of the wordā¦ Apparently it blooms and fruits throughout the year, not in a pair of seasons like common domestic primocane berries. Second (found this out by reading āChromosome Numbers of Rubus Species at the National Clonal Germplasm Repositoryā), apparently itās a species of hybrid origin, between a black raspberry and a diploid Andean blackberry (subgenus Lampobatus, I think), with a later chromosome doubling event (itās a tetraploid). Suddenly the flavor comparisons to Loganberries and Boysenberries make sense. Itās apomictic, so if used for crossbreeding, it should be the pollen donor.
Itās generally considered a high-quality berry, on par with the best North American and European domestic selections, and is grown commercially in South America. Itās also feral in Hawaii (meanwhile in Puerto Rico, we just have Roseleaf & Atherton Raspberries).
I hope, for once, that I have success with these seedsā¦ I have a poor track record with Bramble seeds. Iād love to report my experiences with this one, it really sounds like a worthwhile berry.
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