Yes , most root sprouts that have had kaki fail are from older native trees here. And some of the young seedlings that took are from here, some from other sources ,
I just seams like the age has something to do with kaki rejection , older Virginiana Rootstock stock , more often reject kaki , regardless of source .
Young seedlings, ~ 2yr old from seed ,I rarely have rejection.
But really not sure what is going on ?
Need more trials/ observations
I do know that I cut down some older male virginiana, they sent up many root sprouts , most all kaki grafts failed , most Virginiana varietys took, , most kaki grafts took on two year old potted seedlings
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I have an old male D. virginiana in my yard that puts up a lot of root suckers, but I’ve never had any success grafting kaki scions to those root suckers after trying dozens of times. The grafts always look like they’re taking and then die back after a month or so. I’ve had good success grafting to the root suckers of purchased kakis grafted onto D. virginiana.
Some of my purchased kaki trees succumbed to what looked like SDS (sudden wilting on portions of the tree, blackening veins in the leaves prior to wilting, spreading throughout the tree). Whenever I tried to regraft to the D. virginiana rootstocks of these trees that died back, those grafts also failed. The rootstock suckers never showed any of the symptoms, but maybe it’s some kind of disease that D. virginiana can carry and transmit without exhibiting any of the symptoms. Perhaps most of the older trees in your area (and maybe in my area too) have already been exposed to the disease and carry it, but it doesn’t get passed on through the seeds. Just a theory.
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Yes. This is what I feel is going on as well !
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Not that I’m necessarily inclined to believe it, but do you think it’s at all possible that those suckers could be rejecting your grafts for the same reason that a rootstock will reject a graft, especially a kaki graft, if you don’t eliminate competing growth from below the graft. In other words, could the big male tree be doing the same thing to those suckers that growth from below the graft (but on the same stem as the graft) does to grafts?
A lot of the volunteer persimmons I’m grafting onto come up in clusters, and I assume they’re typically all coming off the same root system. The last couple years I’ve gotten the very rough impression that my grafts seem to do better if there aren’t other little suckers nearby (within three or four feet). In the past I’ve sometimes left those extra suckers both because it didn’t really seem to matter and because they seemed like back-up rootstocks I could graft onto the next year if the initial graft I did failed, but now I kind of suspect they can make a difference in the success of my graft.
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I wondered about that initially too, but I see the same graft failures when I transplant the root suckers from my native D. virginiana and let them grow a year in the new location before grafting. I agree with you that persimmons seem particularly sensitive to competition below the graft, but there must be something else going on as well.
With my successful grafts onto non-transplanted root suckers, I’ve always tried to sever the connection to the mother tree with a spade inserted into the ground in about a one foot radius all around the sucker/rootstock and about a foot deep, usually in the late fall when they go dormant when I plan to graft in the following late spring,. An added benefit is that it makes them easier to eventually transplant the next winter.
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Believe I’m seeing Sudden Death/Decline Syndrome in kakis here. Saijo died suddenly over the (relatively mild) winter. Now, certain branches on Ichi-ki-kei-jiro are displaying black leaf veins and defoliating:
And it’s blooming for the first time, too—dang it!
I topworked the virginiana rootostock of the deceased Saijo with Mikkusu (JT-02) this spring. But as the reports in this (old but valuable) thread suggest, that may have been a waste of time, as many hybrids are apparently susceptible as well. Anyone here have any luck regrafting the rootstock of a KSDS victim with Mikkusu or any other hybrid cultivar?
If this fails, these rootstocks will have to be destroyed, as there isn’t really sufficient room for American persimmons where they’re located. In any case, I think I’m done with Asian persimmons; Kentucky is not kaki-friendly.
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Hi, did you cut thru hardwood to look at a matured pith for black streakiness??? That’s the common problem. I just asking before you throw in the towel…
purple veins also is a phosphorus deficiency.
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It wasn’t covered here, but has anyone tried to graft an American persimmon as an interstem to the older rootstock and then graft the kaki/hybrid? I imagine there COULD be merit to that approach.
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Hi, Dax. No, I didn’t examine the pith—but I will tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion! The vein darkening is irregular in pattern and, for now, is isolated to one section of the tree, which is also losing its leaves. The rest of the tree is green and healthy-looking—and it received a dose of balanced fertilizer in the spring. I won’t throw in the towel yet—but this seems mighty suspicious, especially after its neighbor Saijo suddenly died. I didn’t note the leaf vein darkening symptoms on the latter—but it’s possible I just missed them.
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It’s certainly a 100% regularity to have completely-sourthern (Georgia/Alabama provenance Diospyros virginiana) croak at a year I saw 0 I think. I’ll have to look at weather records to confirm that. …however those far-southern completely die at -9. Add that persimmons (add pawpaws too!) from containers - being difficult to fully-establish, especially pawpaws so buy the biggest pawpaw trees you are able to find or those grown in RootTrapper’s. I don’t know anyone else except ‘Rock Bridge Nursery’ using RootTrapper bags…
He’s growing a bunch of stuff … but his passion is purely nuts.
Maybe some of these ideas help diagnose.
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These have both been in the ground for about three years I think. Low this winter was around 3F. The rootstock was okay, but Saijo—which had grown to about 7’----was stone dead to the union.
I’ll have to try the RootTrapper bags sometime. I do like root pruning pots—but I’ve only used the plastic ones with lots of little protrusions and holes in them. Have had good luck starting chestnuts in them and am trying to get a few pawpaws going in some right now. Trees grown in them do seem to transplant and establish better than those whose roots are all bound up and circling.
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Did you look at the pith (while there) of Saijo again for streaks? … I’d like to hear the answer. I found it interesting that the branch having the issue was differing from the rest of the entirely (healthy of appearance) ‘yard rootstock large tree’ you’re grafting…
Roottrappers differ from fabric bags. They’re completely different. They can change a smaller-transplant massively in 10-days you will see that change…
Using marine paint which has copper added to it and painted to plastic round countainers stop all root circling, creating massively fiberous root-systems.
If you use a 5-6" or even 4" at the lowest height - flats, you can easily space 50 seedlings every inch apart or (I don’t recall) every 1.5 inches. Or, just toss 100 or so nuts or fruit seeds on a flat cause the squirrels will get into them. Hardware cloth over the top and pulling it off not to injure seedlings is a great way to stop squirrels… just pull (remove the leaves either manually or allow the screen to do it for you) off the hardware cloth and cut the squares wider whenever necessary …
Transplant those (50 to 100) seedlings (choose the vigorous) and reject the runts) - always plant the vigorous first and then keep going until you see a decline that doesn’t satisfy vigor, anymore.
Anyways! ha-ha, I wish you luck of course …
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There does appear to be some black discoloration in and around the pith. Black leaf veins and defoliation also seem to be proceeding apace on one side of tree.
Doesn’t look good, but I’ll continue to observe the tree and report on what happens. I will also observe and report what happens to the Mikkusu grafts on the rootstock of the dead Saijo. Anyway, the development of these symptoms in the I-K-K-J kind of reminds me of how fusarium wilt symptoms in tomatoes start out on one side—sometimes just one branch—before spreading to the rest of the plant.
Unforunately I didn’t examine the Saijo for wood/pith discoloration. The wood was dead and dried out by the time I discovered it in early Spring—so may not have been apparent anyway.
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That could be the onset, I couldn’t say. What I see is the pith looks like marble black/white/grey countertop’s in a lot of people’s kitchen’s. Or, your knife is dirty. I pull black coloration from my knife onto wood, sometimes. I’m not saying that is what is happening there. I’m just saying I don’t realize the black gook I pull thru wood with either knife or grafting tools, at-times.
I’ve never seen so much yellow color. Persimmon is white that I’ve always seen while grafting.
Like I say, that white pith should look like “magnificently marbled stone” for countertops…
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The color is definitely in the wood; I wiped my blade with alcohol, then dried it thoroughly before cutting. Something’s going on.
Anyway, Dax, I really appreciate you taking the time to look at it and share your considerable experience.
Nothing to do now but wait and see—and hopefully learn something! 
Awesome
thanks Jeremiah…
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I’ve lost a few Kakis to what I believe to be Kaki SDS. These were all grafted to Southern Virginiana rootstock. Not all southern DV rootstock have died, Some are/were quite vigorous.
In my climate, Lotus appears to be the best rootstock with lots of vigor. Northern Virginiana is also very good.
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What Tony is describing is an incompatibility issue and is quite common in kaki grafted onto virginiana. Some PCNA kaki are especially prone to this. One way to avoid this is to use interstem which is compatible with the roostock as well as the scion (but it’s time consuming). The other way is to use hybrid rootstock. Some cultivars of D.virginiana are kaki haters…one notable example is Juhl which I never regraft with kaki. Mohler on the other hand is “kaki friendly” and forms a nice straight trunk as a bonus.
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Thank you for sharing your experience with lotus rootstock. Is there a way to identify the d. Virginiana rootstock as northern or southern/ 60 or 90 chromosome? I have a few seedlings growing, it would be nice to know before I graft kaki on them.
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You are on the right track, once a rootstock is infected it is done and very difficult to graft anything onto. I have grafted American onto American rootstock that I had previously grafted infected hybrids onto that had failed and some do take but then show infection themselves although they do grow and continue to live. I do not recommend doing that because then the infection can spread to other plants. And yes the black veins on the leaves are very suggestive of KSDS.
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