These are Morris Burton persimmons. Jerry and I photographed them one afternoon in his orchard, years ago.
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These are C-100, one of the most delicious in my opinion. It’s a Claypool cross of Morris Burton x G2. G2 is an open-pollinated male seedling of Garretson.
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So true. I don’t like non-astringent persimmons, and my wife can’t stand the astringent varieties - go figure.
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So other approaches:
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Reportedly, some varieties are wholly or partly “male” when young but 100% “female” when fully mature Maybe we can get pollen from a young tree. Of course, we’d have to know in advance that a variety develops this way. [I’m sorry, I don’t remember whether this sex-change has been observed in Kaki or Virginiana or both.]
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Reportedly more than half of DV seedlings are male. Maybe we make a Morris Burton x DV cross that seems promising then work with the male seedlings. For example, a male seedling of Morris Burton x Early Golden would be 50% Morris Burton. A male seedling of a back-cross of Morris Burton x [Morris Burton x Early Golden] would be 75% Morris Burton. And so on. So for example, we could use this 75% Morris Burton males in further crosses with well-flavored female varieties such as H63A, Barbra’s Blush, Dollywood.
So basically, the F2 Morris Burton males would play the same role in this breeding program that the F2 Rosseyanka males play in Jerry Lehman’s experiments. In theory, cold hardiness is universal among DV varieties, non-astringency would be introduced by the MB F2 male, and flavor would come from the blend of 37.5% MB, 12.5% Early Golden, and 50% the female DV parent.
In your experience, is Morris Burton and its descendants (e.g., C-100) non-astringent before becoming fully ripe?
@disc4tw – Ryan, In the linked thread you wrote << something like Morris Burton which has known excellent fruit but also a tendency to make male flowers could be tested. >>
Can you reconfirm that MB produces male flowers? Thx.
To be honest, I don’t really know. I’ve always eaten them fully ripe, so wouldn’t have a reference frame as to their putative non-astringency. They taste really good ripe, though. Maybe I’ll try one early this year to find out.
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My flowering male is C-88 which is a Morris Burton x G2. I did some controlled crosses of it with I-94, H-118, and L-89 last year. Hope to grow out the progeny to see if it produces anything interesting. Next year I plan on going nuts with the controlled crosses with other varieties, so will have more seed than I can grow out on my little piece of land. Might have to offer them to other serious growers.
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https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/diospyros-virginiana-morris-burton/
This reference says that Morris Burton produces some male flowers.
One grower here finds Morris Burton astringent even when fully ripe. Another not. This is discouraging. It undermines any confidence that MB is reliably astringent (nature not nurture).
No, I put those pictures on Flicker in the public domain years ago. Wanted to get the cultivar images out there. A lot of the written descriptions out there are obviously written by authors without firsthand experience.
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I don’t believe that statement. A statement that significant needs a citation. Morris Burton was one of James Claypool’s favorite persimmons. He used in a lot of crosses but always as the female. He was keen to notice male sports as he used them in his crosses. As far as I know, the only useable male flowers he ever observed on females were in the Early Golden clan.
OK, thanks for the honest response. I’m a habitual skeptic, so I don’t believe everything I read, especially on the internet.
You should be warned, however, that stating “I don’t believe that statement” could get you crucified here – it’s very unfriendly. 
OK, thanks for the honest response. I’m a habitual skeptic, so I don’t believe everything I read, especially on the internet.
You should be warned, however, that stating “I don’t believe that statement” could get you crucified here – it’s very unfriendly.
Sorry , not meant be unfriendly. Hard to gauge context in text, especially to a nerdy scientist like me. I don’t take life seriously enough to want to be unfriendly.
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Hi Jrd,
Maybe posing this question to Cliff England could shed some light on a path forward, he has always been pretty candid when I consult him about grafting compatibility, It would be nice if you figure out the possible ways to proceed.
Dennis
Kent, wa
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I’m just going off of what I’ve read and what has been said. I’ll be growing it myself to find out.
And if as it’s said, environmental factors play a role in male vs female flowers, I may even keep one Morris Burton potted in the driveway (also the greenhouse as applicable once built) to see if I can microclimate it to a “zone 7/8” tree to see if it throws any male flowers.
All speculation on my part at this time.
To add some more to the discussion First Time Controlled Crossing of American Persimmon - #8 by parkwaydrive
The Japanese are apparently interested in this as well.
Persimmon sexuality is governed by the OGI and MEGI genes - basically an epigenetically controlled mechanism. The expression of dioecious flowering is controlled by methylation patterns of these genes which in is mediated by ethylene. It is suspected that the environmental effects that sometimes induce sexual fluidity in persimmons is due to the fact that persimmon is polyploid and can have multiple copies of these genes each with their own epigenetic imprint and the environmental effects could cause some change in the methylation patterns - possibly due to interference with the ethylene messaging. I think the Japanese scientist responsible for this insightful research is named Akagi. Next year, I plan on messing around with ethylene inhibitors on my trees to see if I can force any of my females to sport some male flowers. One side effect, of using two females for crosses is that all progeny are also female so no having to grow out non-fruiting progeny.
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I have 3 Morris Burton trees now for 14 years and never notice a male flower on any of these trees. Meader and Early Golden had male flowers on occasion.
Tony
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