Well, most salsa recipes call for some kind of vinegar, and we put apple cider vinegar (5% acidity) in ours per the recipe (Ball blue book). Then we water bathed it for 15 minutes. The vinegar may be why you don’t have to pressure can salsa. Do you put any vinegar in your salsa?
Anne,
I’ll take a stab at those rhetorical questions, even though I’m not an expert in the area (I have read quite a bit about it though.)
As you know, salt and sugar are both Bstatic and/or bactericidal, but they generally aren’t used in strong enough concentrations in canning foods to be effective at stopping bacterial growth or killing bacteria. The exception is jam’s/jellies where there is significant sugar generally added (although not necessary for prevention of C. botulinum since fruits are acidic anyway, although the extra sugar does act as a preservative). I suppose cured meats may have enough salt to act as a Bstatic.
The fermentation process automatically excludes C. botulinum. Fermentation increases acidity, plus the “crowding out” affect of beneficial organisms prevents the growth of C. botulinum.
I’ve never done any fermenting myself (although I’ve watched my daughter make wine) but I believe it can be a tricky process to safely do it with some foods, while other foods are pretty forgiving, I think. My guess is cabbage and cucumbers are pretty forgiving, because they don’t have much starch. Same with fruits. However, I once read about botulism of prisoners making pruno (an alcoholic beverage prisoners try to make in their cells, in a plastic bag). They use fruit and sugar, but as I understand it the main problem comes when the prisoners add a starch like potatoes, which makes a very suitable environment for C. botulinum.
I use a pH meter checked against known pH values of purchased pH solution. I started out using the recommended amount of lemon juice for salsa in the USDA home canning manual, then converted that to citric acid. I’ve carefully checked it w/ my pH meter, but anymore I just use the recipe I’ve checked to be well below the threshold of 4.6 pH. I’ve read that certain ions can cause pH meters to give false readings (making the solution seem more acidic than it really is), so I’ve checked my salsa before adding the canning salt. Indeed I’ve found adding the canning salt does lower the reading on the pH meter without really lowering the pH.
Subdood,
When I first started using an acidifying agent, I used lemon juice. Years ago, my wife and I got a salsa recipe from someone who got it handed down from her mother, etc. I guess that was about 25 years ago, because my wife was still in college. Anyway we really liked it, but the recipe didn’t call for any acidifying agent. We had some jars pop the lids for a few years until I learned on the radio about the need for an acidifying agent (this of course was before the internet when information was harder to obtain).
We then started adding lemon juice, then citric acid. I like the citric acid myself, because it’s cheap and in my mind more consistent as an acidifier (lemon juice can fluctuate in pH).
There are a few things required for C. botulinum to grow:
moist environment
free of oxygen
non refrigerated environoment
pH above 4.6
If any one of those conditions are not present, c. botulinum can’t grow.
With canning, all those conditions are present unless the food is acidic. That’s why non-acidic foods must be pressure canned, which completely kills the spores of c. botulinum. Water bath boiling only kills the c. botulinum toxin, not the spores themselves, which is why it’s very unsafe to use a water bath canning method for low acid foods.
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I myself do not like pressure canned foods, so just don’t can them. What I really want is a freeze drying machine! Home units are available, the price is still too steep for me though. Food is good for 26 years freeze dried.[quote=“Olpea, post:22, topic:6946”]
I’ve carefully checked it w/ my pH meter,
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I do this too, but discovered some rebound in pH after about an hour of sitting. Final pH may not be where you think it is. It takes time for ingredients to meld.
I’m aware, but was not able to find concentration levels.
Just curious (I ferment lots of things) The acidity takes time to develop. What happens until? And does ‘crowding out’ mean kill? Or is there simply enough salt?
VERY interesting finding. And the effect on the dangerous bacteria from this ‘apparent’ lowering is_____?
If there is a potentizing effect of one b-static on another that would be good to know. But I appreciate your summary above.
I have a pH meter and will look at the brine pH’s as I open new bottles of water bath canned goods. Thanks,
According to this,
food must have a water activity of .85 or less for the purposes of regulations for low acid vs. high acid foods. The regs seem to state that low acid foods must have an AW less than .85, or they must be pressure canned. Although they state c. botulinum needs somewhere b/t .93 and .96 to grow, there are other harmful bacteria which can grow in foods.
According to this chart,
it takes about 10% salt (or 44% sugar) by weight to bring the AW down to .94 in water, which of course would be much more salt than is typically used in the canning process. Salt added in the canning process is simply for flavor.
I used the term “crowding out”. As I understand it, the overgrowth of “beneficial” organisms in the fermentation process, prevent the growth of harmful organisms. I don’t know how long the acidity takes time to develop. As I recall, it generally takes about 12 hrs. for the growth of c. botulinum to start, but it may take longer for low starch foods like cabbage/cucumbers, I don’t know.
I don’t know all the answers to these specifics on fermentation, I’ve just read that these are the reasons fermentation works to prevent the growth of harmful microbes (i.e. crowding out/acidity).
My point here was that certain ions can give a false reading (hence a false sense of security) with a consumer grade pH meter. The canning salt will lower not lower the pH (although the meter will falsely record it) yet there is not enough salt in salsa to inhibit harmful microbial growth.
That’s interesting Drew. I hadn’t considered that. I may check that next time I make salsa, although I’m fairly certain the pH would still be safe in my case. When I’ve measured the pH, it runs about 4.2, which of course is well below the threshold. I also use the recommended amount of acidifer from the USDA canning manual (if you convert lemon juice to citric acid) so I feel pretty good about the amount I’m using.
I discovered this rebound first with acidifying water for blueberries. I think what is happening is it takes time for carbonates to react with acid. Plus unsure of pH meter accuracy, so can’t really determine amount of rebound that occurs, but with the blueberry water it happened every time. So I think the rebound is real. I checked on tomato sauce and also saw a rebound of the pH. I didn’t check when cracking open for use, I will next time. I didn’t make this year’s sauce yet.
I agree if the amount suggested by USDA is being used, as these are tested again and again, you’re safe. The rebound was small and could even be false as you mentioned about other ions. It may be the fact hydrogen is escaping into the air, and if sealed that would not happen.
On salsa which i love, I don’t make it as I can’t really consume chips, too salty, if not salty I can’t eat them, I do eat them, but can only do it once in awhile because of my high blood pressure. It’s so bad I’m afraid, if I stopped taking medication I would probably die within a month. I must start living a healthier lifestyle.
This weekend I made fresh uncooked salsa with my peppers, onions, garlic and tomatoes all from the garden. i used red, black, green (when ripe), and orange tomatoes. i made it for a pot luck we had at the Yacht club I belong to. It came out fantastic! I would have made something else, but didn’t know about the pot luck till i was on the island. It was my night Saturday we had our annual pool tournament and I won! (doubles play, my son and I won)
The fresh salsa I made was huge, and was eaten all night during the tournament. It was completely consumed. I even saw one guy sipping the juice like soup! I love fresh salsa, I’m still trying to make a canned version I like as well. Probably best I don’t can it, as stated, i really should not be eating chips! It can be used though on tacos and such, so maybe I’ll try again.
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Yes that is correct, even elsewhere, like our own bodies. Each niche must be filled with good bacteria, and the bad ones have no place to park themselves. Crowding out is an excellent term as that is exactly what happens.
Thanks Olpea,
The first reference, for food inspectors, mentions many instruments to see if the conditions for b-growth exists - specialized meters. When you mentioned ions, I thought my salts meter would give data here. So we measure temp, pressure, pH, ions, water activity? No one has these meters. WTH Give me a meter that measures botulism. jk.
I apologize as I appear to treat this topic more lightly than one should. I know it can be serious. But let me give an example. Just 2 weeks ago, my sister called me after buying a brand spankin’ new pressure canner (complete with manual). She’s panicked and starts the conversation like this, “I should be dead!!”
me: Oh my what happened? (thinking she just avoided a serious accident)
sister: I’m reading this manual and I’ve been doing it all wrong all these years!
She went on to explain how she has, amongst other missteps, water bath canned her tomatoes for years and years and that she put herself and family in jeopardy. I talked her down but there it was in print. Apparently no mention of acidifying. So that is my backdrop, so to speak.
I love the second reference and want to calculate the aw for my canning recipes. Thanks for posting.
After all is said and done, it is best to be as safe as we know how. Many recipes have been handed down for ages. We rely on the science that is known but there is much that is unknown resulting in conjecture terms like ‘crowding out’ or ‘rebound’ or ‘hydrogen escape’. These aren’t bad terms, it’s just where we are at.
Now to tuck these beauties away in jars (after doing some calculations). 
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I agree Anne,
Some people over react about the tiniest infractions when it comes to canning. My daughter who graduated with a food Science degree had a teacher who said that whenever anyone gave her a home canned product, no matter what it was, the teacher would graciously thank the giver, then promptly go home and throw it away. That’s over the top paranoid, imo.
I looked at a ten year study of botulism cases once and in most cases botulism was caused by the most imbecilic carelessness. Things like leaving a burrito in a sealed package on the counter for a day, then eating it without heating it. There were cases where home canned products were involved but as I recall there was almost no cases involving tomatoes or salsa.
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Thanks for the interesting and hopefully informative comments. My wife said her family did a lot of water bathing back in the day. Did they know about botulism? I don’t know, but no one that I’m aware of suffered any consequences from that. But, that doesn’t mean that it was/is still safe. So, now, there’s no excuse, so I and I’m sure others, will hopefully do it the right way.
Now back to the subject at hand. Over the weekend, we (meaning my wife) cooked up a BIG pot of veggie soup, mostly from our garden. We then pressure canned these for about 90 minutes at 10 pounds pressure. We can only do 7qt at a time, so I had to tend to the second batch, which finished up at about 1:30 Sunday morning. So here are 10qt of garden goodness:
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How well are your burners holding up to the challenge of supporting the weight involved with the full canners? I lost count of how many burners I destroyed with mine when I was stuck with an electric stove. I’ve always found the process so much easier to control when using gas burners with the cast iron supports for the cooking vessels. Not only can they handle the weight, the temperature is so much easier to maintain or adjust.
Your wife gets kudos from me for doing so much canning on an electric stove top.
Well, we haven’t had too many problems yet, and we’ve been using the same burner for three seasons of canning. The element we use is about 8 inches wide and is somewhat elevated, so that helps. And, if that element burns out, we should be able to replace it. We can’t get nat gas to the house, so we have to make do with what we have. But so far so good. The heating control has been good with these burners. Most of our canning involves pressure canning, so the kettle only has about 3 inches of water in it to begin with, in addition to the jars. So, not too heavy.
Down in her mom’s older home, the stove is an electric with ceramic burners, and those are a no-no with canners. But, we rarely are in that house, and only need to run one canner at a time, so no big deal.
Home canned goodness is a thing of beauty. It blesses the eyes and the appetite, and says “No worries. Winter will be just fine.”
So I pulled one of my water bath-canned chopped yellow tomato pint jars (to which I just added salt) to test its pH, as, like my sister, I became concerned. pH=4.1
Tested Dilly Beans and Roasted Red Bell Peppers, both pH=3.7. Sigh.
I think that we canned the last of of the tomatoes. The patch has just about been taken over by weeds, most of the plants are blighted, and most of the fruit that’s left has rotted. There are a few plants that still have some green fruit, but I think this year’s harvest is about done.
Mrs Dood went out and picked about 3 gallons worth this morning, and we had enough to can 4qt and a 1pt.
What fruit that’s left will just be for fresh eating.
We ought to have some green beans to harvest, but don’t know if it’ll be enough to bother canning. And, our corn is done, and the cukes are starting to get pale. So, guess we’re done with pickles and the like.
Our sweet potatoes are still going strong, but it’s still too early to mess with them. I don’t know if we’ll have enough to can or not. They might just be stored in the cellar this fall.
I’m getting ready to make sauce and ketchup too!
The only thing I processed is jam. I have one more batch. I have 3-5 jars of these jams. Labels simplified, some have other berries not listed in them.
I’m also trying these new reusable lids
I prepped Carmine Jewel Bush cherries, and red currants. I have a filtered puree, just waiting to make the jam. Mixing them to make tart cherry-red currant jam.
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I have a lot of fruit left for cooking too. Besides these I have more blackberries, more currants, raspberries, and strawberries. Some will be used for smoothies, some for muffins and other baked goods.
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I still have late varieties producing, maybe about 3 more weeks, then I’ll make my sauce. Not that much this year. I used a bunch fresh and gave away a lot.Next year I will be growing pastes for sauce. Sauce from pastes is to die for IME.
Looks good, Drew. I guess all of this is home grown? The only fruit we used this year is our wild blackberries. Have you or anyone else made jelly or preserves out of tomatoes or red peppers? My wife said that those are kind of popular around here. I suppose you can make jam or preserves out just about any such “vegetables”.
That’s the first time I’ve seen a Tattler reusable lid. Have you used those in the past, and if so, how have they held (sealed) up? I heard of mixed results with them on other forums.
Also, I’ve asked this before on another thread, but how do you pull part of a post from someone else and insert it into your own post?
The mulberries and some (only a pint this year) wild raspberries were foraged.
I have made hot jelly for a glaze. I have also used a canning recipe for candy like peppers.
It supposed to be how the famous Peppadew peppers are pickled.[quote=“subdood_ky_z6b, post:39, topic:6946”]
Have you used those in the past, and if so, how have they held (sealed) up?
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No that’s the first one I ever used. I’m keeping them for a year to see how it does.
Mark the area, and the forum software will ask if you want to quote. At least in Firefox web browser.