sad to hear.
You will appreciate this https://growingfruit.org/t/ponds-are-a-great-investment/7033
There is yellow and gray clay layers with rust streaks in places as described and lots of ground water. The water can get away from you down in those bottoms quickly. A guy with a bobcat was once digging out a pond for me down there. Warned him about the large amounts of water there in the soil. He had heard that many times but this time it was true. He went to lunch and came back to find his bobcat in 3 feet of water on a dry day. Hooked on to him with a truck and pulled him out. He started using tracks after that. This picture shows 3 types of soil here in Kansas which you discussed more or less which are gray clay , yellow clay, and loam. There are other soils here but this is the type of soil my property has.
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@steveb4 the ‘compost’ from my local city operation is all leaves as far as i can tell. I have no clue how they get that many leaves. They have separate piles of woodchips. I guess local tree trimmers and utilities dump their chips there.
The ‘compost’ is black as black can be. When i got it dumped it was super hot and steaming… and the skoal smell would intoxicate you.
Im guessing that in order for it to get that hot there would have to be grass clippings or something?
I grind my own leaves here in a wood chipper and it never gets hot at all.
But they have these big tumbling and grinding machines.
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I’ve seen straight piles of woodchips from mostly medium sized wood steam up. I believe it has a lot to do with the size of the pile and aeration (with leaves). .
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i think its the green leaves and needles plus the moisture of green woodchips that gets it to heat up like that. i also noticed after a good rain a few days later there was steam pouring out of it. even the outside of the pile was so hot you couldnt barely touch it. i used to chew skoal strait cut back in the day and i agree it does smell exactly like it.
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The more nitrogen the smaller the pile that will heat up and leaves contain lots, lots more than wood. The only place I’ve seen rubbish heat up is at garbage dumps.
However, it is well known that with enough moisture, straight wood chip piles can even be a fire hazard. Woodchip Stock Pile Spontaneous Combustion Early Detection » Industrial Monitoring and Control
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Bryant Redhawk holds a PHD in Microbiology and is best known for his Soil Science Series on permies.com. These articles explain the importance of healthy soil microbiology to having a thriving garden ecosystem, and give specific advice on how to apply this knowledge to your garden. He and his wife live on 15+ acres in the woods, where they continue their own research both in Agriculture and soils with the hope to make the world more like it used to be, before mankind began screwing up the Earth Mother.
He is not a soil scientist by trade, apparently, and his doctorate seems to be specifically in soil biology.
soil science: ### noun
- The scientific study of the formation, classification, mapping, and the physical, chemical and biological properties of soil…
This doesn’t mean he isn’t as knowledgeable as someone who is paid to diagnose and correct soil and drainage problems, but it doesn’t appear to be his area of professional expertise.
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I had a pile ignite but it was a big pile of new chips with lots of greens mixed in. Asked the power company bring me chips so they left 8 big trucks worth. It was fantastic biochar as well! Fire department put it out.
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Me too, Steve.
John S
PDX OR
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I’m semi zombifying this thread. Lots of great stuff in here and I thought I’d throw my musings on the pile. (compost puns). @krismoriah I hope your experiments are trucking along.
I have two piles going now to see how they vary. One is a static pile composed of leaves with layers of semi-fresh horse manure turned in before adding more leaves and more poo, repeated a few times. I’ve had that pile running since November. I let that sit for a month or two before stirring it up to make sure that it doesn’t go anaerobic on me and to help speed the decomposition up in the hope that a majority of it is useable as a top dress come April.
The second is only a week old but I like how its shaping up. I’ve sectioned off part of my fowl run below one of their favorite roosting spots and piled a fair amount of leaves to allow for a few inches of depth. I’m hoping that the birds high nitrogen poo coupled with their tireless scratching will help speed the breakdown process along. The concept seems sound but I assume that even if the pile gets shredded down I will need to set it aside for a month to let it cool before it is useful.
As this is going to be an annual process for me I’m happy to hear suggestions. I expect these two piles to be mostly bacterial in nature. I have intentions of building another pile of shredded leaves and wood chips that will sit for at least a year undisturbed for a more fungal base. For that I think I’m going to build it on top of a few pallets with solid sides in order to draw air up through the pile via convection. I can then use blocks to close off the bottom vents to adjust the amount of airflow going through the pile.
@SkillCult also just did a video on a semi passive way of taking advantage of the deciduous cycle which would be great if I didnt live on some of the flattest land around and had deciduous trees on my land. People give me strange looks as I plunder leaf piles.
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I think i used around 5 tons of the leaf compost from the city…its gone. Like i cant really tell i used it all gone… I noticed that it caused nitrogen issues on my berries…that one stumped me for awhile.
I gathered around 100 bags of leaves from my property this year, good exercise. Easy pickings in the creeks and on the banks of hills i have no problem filling bags quickly.
I have around 50 bags that i spread on some areas where i plan on planting some fruit trees and cane fruits. Just letting nature do its thing with weed supression and making the ground softer for digging…
I think the worms really go to town if you place some leaves in prep of digging a hole… the ground around where i place leaf piles is spongy…when i walk…i can feel a definate difference. They must be tilling it nonstop.
I think i have 5 bags or so that i shredded and top dressed my garlic beds… i will likely have to add my nitrogen manure and pee mix in the spring.
By the pictures of your operation im guessing that the end product will be about 2…50 gallon trash barrels full of leaf compost…maybe less.
If you want to play around a bit more… set aside 1 bag of leaves if you can and poke a few holes in it and forget about it… that should yield leaf mould. I did that by accident on some bags and to be honest i think i like it better than the open piles.
Im getting more bang for my buck on my horse manure and woodchip hauling… so i will likely not be doing much extra leaf work other than weed suppressing and maybe spreading some in my walkways to aid the grass growing…which in turn i think is a better plan.
FYI on my leaf bag experiments those leaves get raked from the forest floor so dirt and stuff that is full of life is also in those mixes… so those leaves probably have a high inoculation of all kinds of leaf eating stuffs.
Maybe scoop some living soil or active compost onto your batch and see if that turbocharges things?
Or maybe start a side batch with a bit of soil (or compost/compost tea) to see the difference?
I dont have my operation dialed in yet…just trial and error…but i think other than the nitrogen depleting that the biome and worm life has exploded… which is my goal eventually of permaculture.
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I like what you’re doing. And in your position I’d probably do the same. But I can tell you that the best fruit I’ve ever grown, various stonefruits, has been grown and will continue to be grown on soil that hasn’t received organic additions in 20 years. Even the tree leaves are removed. The soil in my greenhouse is covered with weed barrier and it’s easier to rake up and remove leaves. Soil organic matter is probably 1-2% at most.
So all those organic matter additions makes great looking soil that’s very biologically alive. But that isn’t needed to grow great fruit. And in fact overly rich soil can be detrimental to best fruit. It grows great trees but can reduce fruit quality.
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I agree… the best peaches i have tasted were grown in absolute garbage soil.
Some of the nicest blackberry plants that i have seen were grown in a backyard with zero attention…actually forgotten about.
My long term plan is to cut way back on the amendments after everything gets some years on it. Like i said earlier my goal is mostly permaculture and i plan on not spraying anything but compost tea.
All of my good land was used by sharecroppers for over 100 years… when we bought the place it was pretty worn out. My dad plowed in vetches and cover crops for a couple of years then we wore it out again with corn and tobacco. That lasted over a decade.
Now that its my turn im adding top amendments…instead of the old ways…after this, the land will be all orchards… she has been plowed and burned and used and abused… she gets to rest now and just enjoy some peace under my watch.
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I get the feeling that my viewpoint gets no love here or anywhere else. The internet gurus are all about organic additions and biologically active systems. Thing is they don’t know what it takes to grow great fruit.
You even have people here pushing the idea that all farm soils should receive leaves. Where do they come from?
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Chickens and ducks at work…love it!!
In 3 weeks everything will be well incorporated with a N boost to help decompose the leaves.
This year I let my chickens do the overwinter work in my many garden beds. Using two packages of 3’ portable dog run hinged fence, a net top, and a small portable coop, I rotated the birds through the 12’x24’ beds. At first, I was hesitant when I saw them such frantically fight for every worm…but the end product was dark and friable so I think it’s a good trade-off.
Co-generation of energy!
The nitrogen depletion is a concern. Hopefully with the higher nitrogen sources in the mix that can be mitigated. My soil is very sandy and acidic so this is a long term project in hopes of mitigating the deficiencies. I applied almost the full recommended amount of lime in late November and I’m trying to dry out what clumps were in the bags to finish that off before testing in a few months.
It would be great to not need acidifying nitrogen sources in my case. I’ve read that my best options are potassium nitrate and calcium nitrate since both of those are “less than optimum”. The more natural method would be composted chicken manure which will eventually be supplied by the second pile.
My organic matter is 1.9%. That should be at least 2% and up to %10? It seems like it plays a big part in buffering the pH and keeping nutrients from leaching away. Fruit is a concern but disease resistance is a bigger factor in my mind. Maybe I have that backwards.
The bag with holes is sort of the root that the solid walled leaf pile idea came from. Instead of bags of leaves I’m hoping to make one big “bag” that is more aesthetic but just as functional.
@fruitnut have you had a soil test done? What soil makeup are you working with down there in the lone-star?
I do similar in my vegi garden. While I’m out and about I let them rummage in there. The only issue I have with it is when they venture into the strawberry or asparagus areas since I don’t want them digging there. Mostly they are happy to be shooed off to other corners.
I have had soil tests run on the greenhouse soil in 2004 and 2016. No organic matter test but I know that’s low. Soil conductivity indicates no salt buildup. P, K, Ca, Mg, and sulfur all high to very high.
Sodium low to very low. Iron, zinc, copper, and manganese all high to very high.
I haven’t applied any fertilizer organic or chemical that I can remember in all that time.
So it’s a fertile loamy soil and well drained with moderate water holding capacity.
A very good fruit soil just not biologically active.
Mostly i agree with you that fruit trees take less fertile soil than gardens for sure. Fertility must come from some where to keep trees alive. Maybe the sun is fantastic and water high in menerals. Apple trees as an example need calcium. My farm was pretty farmed out when i got it. Ammendments were necessary on many parts of my farm to grow grass. This is not normally the situation. When we get down to it we know exactly what we need to grow things Kratky method for growing Hydroponic vegetables without electricity .Growing something tasty can also be different from growing something healthy. As an example a farm raised shrimp tastes fine but they never hsve nutrient content of wild caught. The exact opposite can also be true where the tame things have higher nutrition.
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