Starting a 1/4 acre 90 trees paw paw orchard IN 2024 near Charlotte, NC

General Fruit Growing
#41

I double checked. It was coming from the bottom and not the sides. It was not seeping and it very noticeable that it was coming from the bottom. I could see it happen. Gravel was recommended by a PhD soil scientist. It is working very well.
Here is a video to explain how it works. Soil Basics: Capillary Rise - YouTube

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#42

I agree with @fruitnut that you likely have a high water table and not capillary action based on your description.

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#43

I have a well in the area. It is 45 feet below.

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#44

Capillary rise is real but it doesn’t fill a hole with water. Never it can’t.

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#45

You could also have a perched aquifer or a clay layer causing a different layer of groundwater. Source: hydrogeology course in college.

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#46

It does and it can. I have seen it. I dug a 3x3x3 foot hole and it filled. The water stays all year. Watch the video it will explain it too you.

#47

Yes, exactly

#48

That isn’t capillary action. It’s a high water table.

#49

I notice the high water table effect on my driveway as it slopes down to my shop. There are two crack where water seeps out of both soon after a rain and later only out of the bottom. They don’t seep for very long. The holes which are lower stay filled all year. I am on a toehill and in karst topography. Underneath a thick layer of clay is a lot of limestone. It is not a high water table because I also have a few areas where the clay layer is much lower (used to be covered with old trees). The water does not pool up there. The high water table does not last.

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#50

I did watch the video by the agronomy professor from Purdue. It was surprising that capillary action carried water higher in the silt soil than the clay. But that isn’t important to the discussion.

The silt soil had the highest capillary rise. So use that as an example. I’d say that the rise was ~3ft. So what would happen if you only had 1ft of silt in the tube. If what you are saying is true then as much as 2ft of free water should pool on top of the silt column. In fact what would happen is the silt would wet up to the top at 1ft and no water would build up above that.

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#51

You should note where the guy says the clay swells and shuts off the capability to rise. My clay is always damp and if it dries it becomes hard as a rock. I use it to attract solitary bees and must keep it damp so they can use it to build their nests.
Clay soil has the highest capillary action and it has to be taken into account when building. BUILDER'S ENGINEER: PREVENT CAPILLARY ACTION - CONSTRUCTION DETAILS.
We need to have a layer of gravel underneath the homes slab. On top of that a layer of film to prevent vapors. I went the extra step and did a slab drain which is tied into a french drain which also enabled a radon vent to be installed because of high radon counts.

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#52

It would be a very easy to test this out. Take a pot full of garden soil. What better to use than your soil where this is happening. Firm it up good so that capillary action can happen all the way to the top. Now form a hole in the center analogous to a planting hole. Now set the pot in a tray of water. Leave it as long as you want but a day or so should do. Now note where the water level in the hole is compared to the water level in the tray. Given a day or two the water levels will be the same. That is the water level in the hole will be the same as the level of the water table.

If the water level in the hole is higher than in the tray then I’m wrong.

#53

This statement tells me exactly what I was trying to say. It’s not capillary action but a hard pan clay or “perched aquifer” likely causing your drainage challenges. I am familiar with the concept of capillary action as well and what you are describing is not the same thing.

Regardless, for @RollandElliott the soil you have looks like it was exposed to reducing (anoxic, low oxygen) conditions for an extended period of time and being from the bottom of a lake definitely corroborates that. If I was you I would hold off on tilling in additional organics and stick to just adding compost, leaves, woodchips etc on the surface. If you are able to get an excavator to stir things up that could be beneficial if you are able to do it economically. Excavator rentals are ~700 per day near me so that might not be worth it but that is for you to decide!

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#54

Cannot do that at this time since we have had some decent rains. Our drought season is probably over since it is usually August and early September. At this time water is seeping out of my driveway cracks.
I suggest you look into Dr. Bryant Redhawk’s Soil Series. He is a PhD microbiologist with an extensive background in soil regeneration. There is a discussion where I sought advice from him on my situation. I am now having high success in my orchard.

#55

You need to be careful when buying Earthworms.
Many places selling invasive Asian Jumping Worms as NightCrawlers.

#56

Mulch on the surface doesn’t rob all that much nitrogen from the trees. (But tilling it into the soil will for awhile.)

#57

Tested the drainage by putting 10 gallons in the hole. Water drained into wood chip and clay loam easily. But the clay layer took 24 hrs to drain out. The clay layer was compacted by a bull dozer when filled in and also trucks and skid steers when compost was added. I think I will get another 6 semi truck loads of wood chips about 300 yards. that might add another 6" of organic material. It’s the only material i can get delivered for really cheap about $2/cubic yard.

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#58

Generally speaking, it’s better not to amend the soil in the hole. You can get away with it in loose sandy or rocky soils with excellent drainage. But in clay soil, you basically end up the same as if you’d planted in a container. The roots don’t want to go out into the harder soil, and you can also end up with a soggy, wet “bathtub,” as the water doesn’t want to fully drain from the light and fluffy stuff into the fine, dense clay. It’s much, much better to either lay organic matter and fertilizer on top of the soil or incorporate into the top few inches.

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#59

Thanks for this, very timely as friends are planning a 100 ft x 50 ft pawpaw patch in sandy Eastern Shore Maryland soil with excellent drainage. I always suggest no amendments, just top-dress, but maybe their situation is ok to till in compost?

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#60

It’s ok, but I still think it’s better, easier, and more cost-effective to just top-dress.

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