The impossible ideal soil thread

General Gardening
21

Not sure a BBC infotainment show is the best evidence to make your case.

I… disagree. I maintain there is a compelling case that, while high organic matter does increase a number of soil characteristics in ways that benefit gardening, it is neither always practical nor a be-all end-all.

fruitnut pointed out quite well how overly rich organic soils tend to result in excess vigor and poor fruit quality. I’ve also mentioned or alluded to the fact that organic matter can also increase the chances of and duration of waterlogging.

That higher degree of waterlogging might not be an issue in the mountains of West Virginia, for example, but for those interested in growing opuntia, citrus, agaves, pretty much any Chilean, Australian, or South African plant, or even just olives, pomegranates, or capers, that excess organic matter and free moisture is a serious issue.

And that is leaving aside the question of practicality. I regularly apply compost, manure, and mulch to my garden and landscaping in roughly three quarter ton loads (that’s about what my trailer carries, and we’re talking dozens of trips) and by the next year or even the end of summer, it’s just… gone. It’s not really in the soil either, the soil, except in very wet areas, only gets but so dark. In my climate, mulch and compost become CO2 really quickly. And CO2 doesn’t do squat for the soil.

Again, hence why I brought up volcanic soils (and things that imitate some of the chemical and physical characteristics of volcanic soils, like perlite, expanded slate, “biochar” aka charcoal, etc), because many of the benefits of higher organic matter can be achieved through other means.

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22

Not sure that answers in a forum of folks that use google as evidence or some kind of gut feeling is the best place to find your answer.

If you are on some kind of quest to out do ProMix…im all for it. Scientists develop those things.

You did ask for the general level… so with that being said my whole community has ideal soil. Everyone here grows nice gardens and there are several orchards.

Im pretty thankful that the soil was ideal enough to create plant life which created coal and gas and oil for my way of life… pretty thankful that the soil was ideal enough to cover the planet with plant life so that i have atmosphere and climate to live.

Dirt is what my neighbor calls it. I call it Earth. (documentary is relevant because i grow things in the Earth, on the Earth and from the Earth). Dont knock it til u watch it.

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23

Idk, this kinda undersells how experienced and knowledgeable a lot of the people here are. There’s a reason I asked here, not on Reddit or Facebook.

Hadn’t heard of this before, looked it up.

INGREDIENTS

  • Sphagnum peat moss (80-90% by volume)
  • Coir
  • Perlite
  • Ground Limestone (for pH adjustment)
  • Wetting agent
  • Mycorrhizae

Ok, so it’s an improved peat product. That’s alright, makes for a good potting soil no doubt. But as a soil amendment, it’s basically just peat with some lime. So, a good source of finely ground but otherwise uncomposted organic matter with some pH adjustment, but not something I’d go out of my way to use (again, I’m already applying literal tons of organic matter to my garden and landscaping. A few bags of peat moss won’t even leave a mark).

The larger issue I face is, all the organic material very quickly degrades. And while in climates that are colder, drier, or both, than mine, the degraded organic matter sticks around for a while (as this black stuff that, when treated in a lab with sulfuric acid yields a tar-like substance called humus that doesn’t easily rot, and which, even though humus only exists in labs, gardeners will refer to the dark stuff in their soil, which does easily rot, as humus), in my climate, it does not last very long, and in even hotter, wetter climates, never even forms in the first place.

There’s a reason why the botanic gardens and arboretums in my area use permatill-permatill is made-made and doesn’t rot.

I can’t argue with that.

I don’t watch TV, and if I did, I wouldn’t watch the BBC. :wink:

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24

As of today 2023 we havent figured out if the chicken or the egg came first.

However…

Good thing is that i was right about UFO’s. (UAP’s)… they are real. So maybe the aliens made our soil. (maybe we are aliens :robot:)

Without being political the leader… said today that Cancer has ended as we know it… that is good news for us all… and a fact!

So maybe the perfect soil will come to light here shortly…as alot of other stranger things are happening that we have no idea why or how… such as why oceans, rivers and lakes are disappearing and why whales seem to be dying at alarming rates recently.

I think they are predicting famine shortly as well.

So whatever you are gonna grow in this ideal soil you had better get movin with it… the aliens are here killing whales and raising the planets temperature and giving us pandemics and going to starve us to death…thank goodness they cured cancer… they are likely going to take over the Earth soon…

This is the kind of answer you get from a guy in a forum…and u cant prove me wrong on any of it.

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25

Your shingles acting up?

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26

But then you are not asking about the most ideal soil but about the most versatile soil. That is actually quite easy to achieve because plants will put out with a lot with minimal tweaking for PH. But then this most ideal soil will not be the best soil for everything you grow because some plants will want something more to their liking.

The soil is just a layer of the growing medium. I put a big fat cap of green mulch around my trees and bushes, it works amazingly well at keeping the water in place. If I didn’t do that my ideal soil would have to be different in order to retain water by itself. It also affects how easily it soaks up water, which again without it both the soil and how it is mounded would have to be different in order to be ideal.

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27

You forgot about Amazonian Terra preta. Sitting in the Amazonian nutrient desert of rainforest, for almost 2,000 years. Still going strong.

“These soils are highly productive and have been found to sustain agricultural productivity even after centuries of use.“

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28

That’s what I found out with my blueberries. I can grow them alright but they are not the most productive.

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29

Yeah. My thought too. Keeping the Ph in range is half of it. Yeah it can move significantly in half a season. Especially with heavily amended soil.

Long term and heavy additions of wood chips mulches are overall helpful for several reasons but just assuming that you are squared away because of that practice is a mistake. At least out West.

Like so many things, especially with this hobby, “perfect” is the enemy of “good.”

30

The empty set.

31

In other words, there is no such thing as an ideal soil. It is impossible.

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32

Isn’t that the title of the thread?

33

That is kinda the point.

34

That’s a fair point. But, arguably, for gardeners there isn’t much difference between ideal and versatile. Most, if not all of us, are trying to grow all sorts of different things, so finding a process for improving the soil such that the widest variety of plants will thrive and be productive in it, or in other words determining what kind of soil maximizes the most important soil properties, ie permeability, CEC, pH buffering, field capacity, porosity, etc.

Framed like that, it’s no longer an issue of “different plants, different soils” it’s an optimization problem.

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35

For the ring of useful comments, the zero element is given as

; )

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36

In a more strict or philosophical sense, yes, the ideal soil is impossible.

However, it is my supposition that a discussion on this topic is nonetheless very useful. Working and improving the soil is very much an optimization problem, but I see precious little discussion, perhaps even knowledge of, what it is needs optimizing.

A similar ask, if there really are some soils that are simply exceptional, and I contend there are, it would behove the good gardener to try and recreate, if not those soils, then at least what makes them so good.

Already alluded to: I think the above already happens. The better part of standard gardening advice i effectively in the spirit of trying to replicate chernozem. I’d call it the worse part of standard gardening advice, since aiming for such an organic soil is, honestly, foolhardy.

In a word, people are already trying to recreate what their base assumption of what the ideal soil is, might as well steer them in the right direction.

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37

Yes blueberries work best in specific soil that maintains a low pH. Although my regular soil is just like my blueberry soil except for the addition of compost. I leave that out of the blueberry mixes. which is mostly pine bark and peat. To maintain the low pH I add sulfur every year. Even peat and pine eventually compost and raise pH. For the first three years it’s low but then starts creeping up. One needs to start monitoring the pH. I mulch with pine bark only, adding more every year. Now my beds are around ten years old. My plants are seven feet tall and produce well. Some varieties produce very well others vary from good to average.
My native soil is too basic for blueberries. in one foot high 4x4 beds with peat and pine bark have done fantastic for a decade now. Blueberries survive about fifty years.

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38

I reread your post about Chernozen but not clear what’s the right direction to you. What do you suggest?
I add a lot of compost to my garden because they are essentially free. But most of my fruit trees are in clay but on a slope, so they drain well.

39

I’m thinking of putting mine on grow bag and just add peat. This way I can maintain the PH level.

40

Yes there is.

What is the most ideal car? You can’t answer that unless you include what you want the car for. You can’t even begin to talk about ideal without including the intended purpose.

But most versatile soil? One that drains well while retaining humidity and has a high cation exchange is the most versatile.

See how easy versatile can be answered and how ideal must be qualified?

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