@hobilus Autumn olive is considered invasive in my area so I wouldn’t be looking to try this but I’m sure there could be merit in trying this where there aren’t local restrictions.
@mroot I agree that, in theory, it should be possible to locate a plum that has the resistance in a native population and then breed that into plums with better fruit quality. Likely I just won’t have the scale to do this.
I think the first (cherry) and third (goumi) sound the best! As much as I like plums, I see a lot of sad gross looking dropped plum fruit on native trees. I hardly ever see fruit get close to ripe - they’re hit pretty hard by something. Maybe PC or stinkbugs or who knows.
I think it would be important to know about the genetics, pollination, and breeding attempts so far for these species. Some things are easier to hybridize and also to breed true and/or graft than others. You should focus on the ones that are most promising.
Also, I’m interested in joining your 3rd project!
Much of my property is invaded by autumn olive and I have wondered about trying goumi since autumn olive does so well here. Also, perhaps grafting to autumn olive or trying to cross autumn olives that have the best taste.
I have slowly been evaluating my autumn olive plants. There is about 1 in 20 with fruit I would eat fresh. Lots of variability in flavor from plant to plant.
This would be a risk where I am. I can’t find any easy info on whether they cross. I also know that goumi and autumn olive ripen at different times (autumn olive in autumn - here it is quite late, with a long window. Like october-nov). I don’t know if their bloom times differ autumn olive is early april for me- I don’t have goumi so can’t comment on their bloom time.
I am also in somewhat harsh growing and fruiting conditions (high pH alkaline soil, high pest pressure, oddly variable weather because of the valley), so it might be worth it for me and for people like @clarkinks to have something that is a bit undesirable for others in terms of feral-ness.
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@SMC_zone6 Moniz definitely looks like a good variety based on the description. Have you tried this variety?
@benthegirl I agree that, after seeing the feedback, the first and third project look to be the most worthwhile. Plums are very tempting given how nice the fruit can be, but it sounds like there are a lot of challenges even when growing the native plums. If I had more land to experiment with, I would really like to try planting many goose plum seedlings to identify a highly disease resistant and pest resistant plum ( Seeds – OIKOS Tree Crops) to then cross with freestone plums that have some disease resistance to get an east coast friendly backyard plum. That being said, I probably will just focus on cornelian cherry and goumi.
For cornelian cherry, there have been breeding efforts in Ukraine and Poland. There is pretty good reference material on the characteristics of some of the varieties. A lot of information is outlined in the cornelian cherry topics: Sweetest Cornus Mas Cornelian Cherry? - General Fruit Growing - Growing Fruit and Cornelian Cherry - Yea or Nay? - General Fruit Growing - Growing Fruit. I think that cornelian cherry is generally hard to graft but there is reference material on the best ways to do it.
For goumi, I have not found a lot of breeding documentation and there is a more limited number of varieties available How many Goumi varieties are there and which is the sweetest? - General Fruit Growing - Growing Fruit.
I found a couple discussions on grafting goumi to autumn olive and there have been both successes and failures reported How many Goumi varieties are there and which is the sweetest? - General Fruit Growing - Growing Fruit. If you are interested in goumi anyway you could probably get a couple goumi plants and then try to graft cuttings of those plants to your autumn olives as the original goumi plants get larger (basically growing your own scions).
Seedlings, in general, have potential to find a variety that does well in your conditions so that is one cool thing about trying to grow out seedlings, though they likely will have more feral type traits because some of the traits of the named varieties are likely to be lost.
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Valuable wisdom mentioned, thank you for sharing. I will internalize this for my own efforts.
I personally am focused on persimmon and pawpaw breeding. I selected them for a few reasons:
-Native fruit (exception of kaki genetics in hybrids)
-Few pests and lower disease pressure compared to many other commercial fruit species
-High probability for improving basically ‘wild’ species using modern techniques (I realize there is prior selection on a large scale by various groups)
-It’s fun to introduce everyone I know to new fruits
-Once established they should be comparatively lower maintenance than commercial fruits
It seems like a lot of the discussion here is related to a species capacity for improvement as well as ease of use related to pests and diseases. Why not pick something ‘bulletproof’ like jujubes or those I mentioned?
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I just added it this year.
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@disc4tw It is good to hear that you are working on breeding persimmon and pawpaw. I think that those reasons are compelling and was thinking along similar lines though excluding the native element. I definitely hope you have success with your efforts and will be interested in seeing how they turn out.
I considered persimmon, pawpaw, and jujubes when thinking of ideas but had a few reservations about each.
For persimmon, I have only been able to try store bought fuyu and hachiya. I was not a huge fan of the ones that I managed to try, which was disappointing because I know that persimmon is a great fruit tree to grow in terms of its bulletproof nature. I know that the persimmon flavors vary depending on the variety, but I am hesitant to go for it knowing that I was not a fan of the two varieties that I was able to try. I think I prefer a bit of acid in the flavor profile and found an aspect to the smell that was unfavorable. Have you found the flavor and smell to be distinctly different for persimmon such as 100-46 and Prok relative to fuyu and hachiya or that store bought is much worse in quality?
For pawpaw, I haven’t been able to try one yet. From what I have read, the flavor sounds great. I am planning to go to an orchard in my area that grows these to try them this year. That being said, I read about some potential small risk associated with excessive consumption. I realize that the risk is not proven and likely remote but just decided not to make it a big project because of that aspect.
I read a lot about Jujubes and they seem like a good option. I have had dried and frozen jujube and liked both (fresh ones sound even better). I probably won’t have full sun in the area that I am looking to try these projects as it is a northwest facing hill slopping downward away from the house so I was a bit worried that they would have issues with fruitfulness. Do you think that varieties like honey jar and Bok Jo are fruitful enough to do well in that sort of sun exposure in 6a/b CT? Also, I have a bit of concern about root systems as I read that jujube roots can be fairly aggressive and I would be planting somewhat close (approx. 25 feet) to sewer lines. My hypothetical plan with Jujubes would be to go with those fruitful varieties and see if seedlings show good production levels.
I think all fruit breeding is exciting and definitely think there is potential in all of the ones that you mentioned. The ones I had thought of were mostly due to similar goals of relatively bulletproof fruit that have potential for improvement.
@SMC_zone6 I’ll be interested in hearing how it is. Did you get it from the nursery that you linked to? It seemed that the nursery was in Canada.
I didn’t. I got mine from @KYnuttrees at www.nuttrees.net. Big fan of Cliff and his nursery. Can’t recommend him enough.
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Should you decide to pursue the plum project, perhaps something with Chickasaw and American genetics might help. I’ve got enough experience with brown rot and chickasaws to know they aren’t immune, and to know that some do better than others in identical situations. All are susceptible to plum curculio, but some seem more attractive. The Japanese-Chickasaw hybrid Robusto would be my starting point if I were breeding. It has been less attractive to Plum Curculio than others and suffered less from Brown Rot.
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An overwhelming amount if you request the whole orchard spreadsheet… Set aside at least half a day for it.
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Native would be my route, if a good meaty parent is available. I’m not sure if selection for better fruit would inherently increase disease susceptibility by improving the quality of the fruit in a way we would want it to be…
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@haldog Thank you for noting that variety! Do you find that you need to spray all of your plums/have you ever tried not spraying for a year to see the resistance levels? I think I am less likely to do a full plum project but might do a couple trees to test on.
When I first had plums I didn’t spray and plum curculio wiped out most of the crop. PC definitely affects some plums more than others. In the mid 1970s when I was growing up there was an abandoned plum grove in the woods near my house. The trees produced golf ball sized, sweet plums with a sour skin that were good for fresh eating and jelly, that were largely unaffected by plum curculio-or perhaps the trees were just so productive that they could lose 90% of their crops and still have heavy crops. If I want a decent crop not ruined by PC I have to spray. Others have had success using Surround as an organic option, but I haven’t tried that. Robusto is heavily impacted, but seems the least affected out if it, Guthrie, Odom, my local native chickasaws, and my seedling Japanese. Guthrie seems most susceptible but will also set a very heavy crop.
Out of what I grow, Robusto also seems the least affected by Brown Rot. I believe I MIGHT be able to avoid the fungicide sprays on it and perhaps others if I had ideal conditions-early morning sun, drying winds, trees pruned to very open centers, low humidity/no rain in the last month of fruit development, fruit thinned so that no fruit touches another or a twig or a leaf.
By the way, I did some more research, and Robusto is reported to be
5/16 prunus salicina
4/16 prunus angustifolia (chickasaw)
1/16 prunus simonii
1/16 prunus americana
1/16 prunus cerasifera
4/16 unknown
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@haldog Thank you for the additional information! It definitely sounds like Robusto is one that is worth trying.
I would be leary of bringing in wild plums from the east coast due to the asymptomatic peach yellows disease. It spreads mainly from wild plums via leafhoppers but also can be seed transmitted but not by pruning tools thank goodness.
First reported in late 1700’'s near Philadelphia causing witches broom in peaches. Found wherever the plum leafhopper is native from Canada to Virginia and over to Ohio,Indiana and Illinois. It wiped out the commercial production of peaches in Delaware from 1890 to 1900.
More recently in growers memory was the Plum Pox Virus scare in 1999 Pennsylvania.
Just something to think about when sourcing material.
https://www.virginiafruit.ento.vt.edu/peachyellows.html
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I’m surprised how many responded to this thread. I too am a breeder as a hobby within a hobby. I mostly have worked with brambles. I also dabble with pluots, peaches and nectarines. I have not had much success with stone fruit as I have lost seedlings twice. Once when weeks old to mites and once due to an early fall freeze it went from 50 as the low to 21 for two nights. That killed my peach seedlings that were two years old. It also killed about 15 other fruit plants.
With brambles I have been extremely lucky. My biggest accomplishment is really mother natures not mine! Mother Nature bats last according to Farmer Fred. Anyway a robin ate one of my raspberries, pooped it out while eating one of my black currants and in the pot I let the raspberry plant grow. Now I’m the proud owner of the world’s first primocane fruiting purple raspberry. And the flavor is amazing!! Like a sweeter boysenberry. I also developed two different primocane fruiting black raspberries whose primocane berries are good to excellent. The commercial Niwot plant has terrible tasting primocane berries. It’s the mother and pollen parent for one is Jewel, the other is from the local Ontario wild yellow black raspberry. I also developed a couple red raspberry species plants. Irene a pink raspberry. And Sterling Gold a semi trailing yellow raspberry. Cascade Gold is the mother. Sterling Gold is hardier than its mother. Also more resistance to root rot.
So just because you have a small operation you can at least wander unto something unique. I have more than once!!
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