I have been trying to simplify the discussion but it seems to have complicated it instead.
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Suruga is 4-6 weeks later on average in the California central valley. It does vary from year to year. Sometimes it can be longer than 6 weeks.
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I don’t know, but I’ll tell you how to figure it out – if you can grow the fruit well-seeded. PVA seeds produce ethanol but in small amounts that only partly eliminate astringency in the immediate vicinity of the seeds. That’s where you’ll see brown discoloration. You need to wait until they are soft for complete de-astringency. PVNA seeds produce ethanol in large enough amounts to eliminate astringency throughout the fruit. You’ll see brown discoloration throughout. You can reportedly eat these fruit while still firm.
This description from a Japanese travel site may explain the “special growing conditions” used for Kuroama persimmons. I believe Kuroama is the trade name given to persimmons from the Kinokawa region that are subjected to this treatment. The variety of persimmon used is Shibugaki.
“Last but not least: the"drunken kaki" of Kinokawa
If this is not enough of kaki lingo yet, then let’s take the Shibugaki talk one step further.
So, we can dry them to get Hoshigaki or half-dry them to get Ampo kaki. Yet, there is one more way to break down the tannin and turn Shibugaki edible, which is alcohol!
We were told that traditionally Shibugaki were put in a plastic bag after many holes were poked into the fruits. Then Shochu was added and the bag was put in the refrigerator for a few days. The alcohol speeds up the softening of the fruit’s flesh and makes it sweet.
In the Kinokawa area of Wakayama Prefecture this alcohol method has been taken to the next level to produce the “Kinokawa Kaki”, a new way of marketing the drunk persimmon.
Believe it or not, the Shibugaki fruit is soaked in alcohol while still hanging on the tree! Can you believe it! A bag that contains alcohol is put around the fruit for over 20 hours to take out the astringency. Then the alcohol bag is removed yet the fruit remains covered with a vinyl bag until the fruit is ripe and can be harvested.
Since this is a lot of work, the production volume of Kinokawa Kaki is small. Due to its rarity, these fruits fetch a high price. They are harvested in November, which would be the season to try and buy some.”
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If a persimmon needs exogenous ethanol, then it is not producing endogenous ethanol and is not PVNA.
That’s a very interesting description, thanks for sharing! A google image search for “Shibugaki” shows more elongated, smaller fruit than those in the video of Kuroama fruit shared by @castanea. Also, the flesh color of the Shibugaki pictures isn’t dark at all. The darker flesh may only result from pollination like in PVNA cultivars. I would still like to know if Kuroama is PVNA as well.
Does anyone know if dark skinned “kuro” kaki have dark flesh as well? Are the kuro kaki fruit PCA, PVNA, or PVA? Here was a thread about it a while back, and apparently One Green World is now selling a black persimmon they call “Raven”.
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Shibugaki means astringent persimmon in Japanese from what I understand in contrast to amagaki meaning sweet/nonastringent persimmon. I think these Kuroama persimmons are produced from a variety called Hira Tanenashi.
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We had a long discussion of what Kuroama might be in a different fruit group a few years ago.
It isn’t Shibugaki. @ncdabbler
It’s not from Kinokawa. @TomJ
It isn’t Hira Tanenashi.
It is apparently a cultivar grown primarily or solely in the persimmon growing region of Wakayama, Japan.
Some thought it was Akiou, but no one could agree on that because Akiou is grown in Fukuoka.
Some thought it was Fuyori but no one could agree on that.
Some thought it was Hasshu, but Hasshu is a newer cultivar and the fruit is not being sold internationally yet.
The only thing everyone agreed on was that it was from Wakayama.
Part of the problem may be that the same cultivar might have a different name in different prefectures.
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All of these strange Japanese names just reminded me of the Kobayashi Maru and where it might fit in.
Oh, wait, that’s a Star Trek connection! Ignore. 
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Im not sure if its been said yet…but for us South East people THE best reference is Cliff England. His website gives pretty good reviews and cold tolerances… but if you want to talk to him personally he also lists his office and home phone.
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Cliff England is not selling trees this year “due to some medical reasons and climatic reasons”. However, earlier in the year he was selling scion wood for those interested. Attached is the scion wood list he provided me.
TREES and Scion wood List 04 NOV 2021 Farms 1, 2 and 3 UPDATED.pdf (679.7 KB)
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@krismoriah … yes I have talked with Cliff b4… bought a CHE from him… 3 or 4 years ago. It is getting some size to it… but no fruit yet… perhaps this year.
Thanks for sharing. Looks like his Jo Chu is dead. Seems plausible that One Green World likely got the cultivar from him, or his source:
- Jo Chu Korean Persimmon Kaki 2015 DEAD
I got this information from a fruit grower in Japan.
The Hiratanenashi tree sold in the US does not produce the fruit I posted above. The US cultivar of that name produces a differently shaped (conical), smaller fruit.
The fruit I posted above is from the cultivar Hiratane or Hiratanegaki, or Hiratanenashigaki grown in Japan, which is larger and has an oblate speroid shape like the photo I posted above. The fruit does have some astringency (but lower than many astringent persimmons) unless treated. It is treated primarily by keeping it on the tree for 30 days to reduce astringency. I don’t have any other details on what if anything else they do to treat it. It does not have the washed out flavor that many other treated persons have.
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So are they made from Hira Tanenashi then? I was not referring to any US versions, only the flat seedless (translated word to word) one in Japan. Some of the Japanese texts I found refer to that variety being treated with alcohol while on the tree. However, my comprehension of Japanese is not complete as I’m not schooled in that language. Translating them to English can muddy the names of the persimmons.
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Yes, the Japanese version.
We had discussed Tanenashi a few years back and discarded it because the American fruit looks nothing like Kuroama.
I can’t find anything in English or Japanese that explains the treatment process except that it’s complicated. Indeed, it looks like they may be treating the fruit while it remains on the tree.
It is certainly a tasty fruit, however they do it.
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Would you mind letting us know what happened to your matsumoto wase fuyu? I only ask because you live not-far from me, and I ordered a matsumoto wase for this spring. I had flip-flopped between the matsumoto wase ant the IKKJ, and now I’m nervous I picked the wrong one!
I think there is something wrong with its rootstock, not the variety itself. It was initially fine and set fruit in abundance. I’m regrafting it to give it a new life. It should work well for you. Many in the Philadelphia area grow Asian persimmons.
My Matsumoto was from Ison’s in Georgia, just planted last year and it was slow to wake up. Hope I don’t have rootstock issues!
It’s hit or miss since persimmon rootstocks are all seedlings with variability at least the ones we have to work with here. It has happened to a couple other varieties of my many I attempted before. At least it didn’t flat out die so I can save scions to regraft.
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