I was surprised by that also. Did you happen to notice the application rate for Captan…10 oz. Unless I missed it (probably did) I do not know what the concentration was. I’m guessing it was a liquid, but I thought liquids were basically 2X strength volumetrically speaking. If that’s true that almost had to be a light application rate, wouldn’t it?
Blue, my understanding of the use of Topsin was to cover areas where Captan was weak. I didn’t think Captan had any real resistance problems. In fact, I thought resistance had never been shown to Captan, but maybe I’m remembering that incorrectly.
Alan, do you do any dormant sprays at those sites? If you do, what are the chemicals you use? I totally believe you and your experience, but I’m wondering if those sites you mention might get a lot of protection from natural forces like airflow and sunlight. I think my own trees are pretty well off in that regard also.
I’m inclined to believe also that SBFS could be satisfactorily protected using later sprays, because I sorta view (perhaps wrongly) SBFS as one of the easy to control fungal issues. That is to say, being rather easy to knock down, sort of like PM etc.
I’ve never once had the tiniest hint of SBFS, but just down the road from me (less than 100 yards) are apples that are covered with it. Those apples however are old trees that are all grown together with pioneer species trees growing up amidst them. Terrible air circulation and dappled light.
Alan, I also wonder how much impact varietal choice would have? It seems like Goldrush is particularly susceptible to it based on photos I’ve seen here on our board. I think the more porous, rougher texture skin probably allows it to “take root” better. Have you noticed any increase in SBFS occurrence in your russeted or other rougher skin varieties? Seems like waxier, slicker skinned varieties might fare better, but I’m just sorta guessing as I really don’t have any of those rougher skin types.
I believe its the Topsin with the resistance issue, hence the addition of Captan to the Topsin.
I did not pay attention to the Captan rate in the article, but my orchard manual shows the rate for Captan 80W at 3-5 pounds per acre depending on if something is mixed with it. The rate in the article is 10oz/100 gal for the 80w, but I expect they are spraying 400 gal/acre which makes their full rate 40oz/acre or about 2 1/2 pounds/acre.
oh…ok. I was thinking just the 100 gal. Yeah…that makes sense. Still kinda light. I think the max rate for mine is 5 1/4, maybe even 5 1/2 lb. per acre east of the Rockies.
Yeah…I’m kinda with Sara. I personally wouldn’t drink juice made from crappy apples like those pictured. It’s not that I think it’s dangerous or anything (though I think it could be), it’s just that I could never enjoy drinking juice made from rotten and diseased apples. I’m a modern wussy.
I can second that Alan, we make about 50 gallons of cider a year and pay no attention to sooty blotch. In my experience it doesn’t affect the quality of the cider at all. In fact, rot and bitter pit are the only two things we have found that hurt the quality of the cider.
We give all the apples a quick dunk in a bucket of water to get the dirt off, cut them in half to check for rot, then into the grinder they go. We get very good cider from trees that have not been sprayed in years.
I think I may try some Topsin w/ Captan in the future for brown rot on peaches. Last season I primarily used Captan early in the season and Indar later (sometimes tank mixed w/ a low rate of Captan). Captan is effective against a wide variety of fungal diseases (rust not being one of them).
Topsin used to be widely used in the apple industry for scab, but fungus resistance became so wide spread growers quit using it. Supposedly the population has qualitative resistance, which will never revert back to sensitivity of the fungicide.
nope…it’s a dead beat for rusts, but that’s really about it. That’s where the myclo comes in for me, and the addition of sulfur helps a bit with that also.
I’m curious Olpea, knowing that, why are you inclined to try it? It must have been good stuff at one time though, because like you say, it appears in just about every single efficacy chart I’ve seen where Captan is mentioned. There is another common chemical often combined with Captan too, but right now I cannot recall what it is.
I’d like to reduce my pesticide costs. There is a wide variation in pesticide costs w/ newer chemistries considerably more expensive. Off the top of my head the insecticide Delegate (a very good insecticide) runs about $65/acre per application. Quite a difference compared to some of the pyrethroids like Mustang which is around $6 per acre.
Fungicides are more expensive in general. Pristine is at about $50/acre. Captan is $19/acre at the max rate. Topsin runs $13 but must be tank mixed w/ Captan (at the 1/2 rate) so that brings it up in the low $20s. Indar and Propiconazole are both cheap, with Indar being more expensive and effective. I plan to continue to use Indar, but was looking for something else I could rotate.
I’ve not read Topsin has as much widespread resistance for brown rot, so I thought I’d give it a try.
Appleseed, one site with very old and large apple trees in the mix and also with two trees of Goldrush is not in a fully open site- down low and in a clearing surrounded by forest trees that take a couple hours of light or more from the trees. It has pristine Goldrush along with other susceptible varieties, but my own site gets some blotch with the same program- not disgusting but not pristine. The other two sites get full sun with one of them on top of a hill where the wind is strongest.
I’m not saying it would work everywhere but Cornell indicates it shouldn’t work anywhere.
These are not the only sprays done- there is a delayed dormant of myclobutanil and oil and two insecticide sprays which sometimes include Captan along with myclo. But even when and where the Captan wasn’t
used in May, the program was effective without spraying the trees in June for summer fungus.
I forgot that I also spray a fourth site with quite a bit of morning shade with Golden Delicious, Macintosh and Gala as the majority varieties- the Macs are fricking huge trees. Same deal- pristine apples without June apps.
I’m not recommending anyone take my advice over Cornell’s- only to consider the fact that results may inexplicably vary and run against the scientific explanation. If I’d read Cornell’s recs earlier I probably would have sprayed through June- my customers would have paid for it and I would have been afraid of failure otherwise- but I’m always trying to find the least spray approach and commercial guidelines tend to exaggerate the need for intervention as it applies to a home orchard. .
@Alan I hope this isn’t a silly question: does the temperature of the water used with the sprays (cold) affect the efficacy of the spray? Thanks for your help.
Never seen that question discussed anywhere so I assume it is not an issue as farmers often take their water from ponds which would generally make spring apps an awfully cold mix.
I wash off my apples, but ignore the sooty and fly speck when I juice them for fresh cider. I eat my apples all the the times right off of the tree with all of that stuff and never a worry.
I haven’t checked this site for a few days, and here you all are discussing away without me!
Thank you all very much! It’s a lot info to digest. I am on vacation now, will study all the info later.
Olpea, it’s good to see you here!
Alan, Appleseeds: thank you very much for your valuable advice.
Bigdoug03 and Johnthecook: the sooty blotch was really thick on the apple I had, it didn’t come off through regular wash. Wouldn’t the juice turn black if There are that much sooty blotch left on Apple? have more questions about cider and sooty blotch for you later.
I made excellent cider for many years with apples covered with SB/FS after just a quick rinse in a large galvanized wash tub. The juice showed absolutely no sign of discoloration that I could see and the final cider was clear like champagne.
I wouldn’t worry about sooty blotch but if I was worried about it I would give the apples a chlorine dip aka bleach. You might see this link it has some interesting information including using chlorine dip for sooty blotch and information on other diseases http://www.caf.wvu.edu/kearneysville/organic-apple.html
Sara, if you end up with a lot of apples with SB again you could do an experiment. One press load or carboy using unscrubbed apples, one with scrubbed apples. Let them ferment, rack, age, bottle, etc. Then see if you can tell the difference. If the black of SB stays with the skin and is not especially soluble, it will stay behind with the pomace rather than come out with the cider during pressing. If it comes out as sediment with the cider, it will probably drop out and be left behind by racking or later by aging. So as long as it doesn’t impart off flavors, it may not matter much.
But I do agree the mental dimension of feeling great about the starting materials you are using is an important consideration, whether or not it makes a practical difference. Of course you want to feel excited about your fruit, rather than grossed out.
I sprayed Captan twice this season which was a dry summer. I’m sure I need to spray more than twice next year because my apples didn’t seem much cleaner.
