Why is brix so important? Does higher brix mean more flavorful / tastier?

General Fruit Growing
#21

Just because there is a chart doesn’t mean it is accurate. The site seems to be designed to sell products (based on anecdotes instead of research) and no mention of the source for brix level seemed available.

I’m not saying the info isn’t legitimate but I need to know where it came from before I can apply any significance to it. As far as nectarines (which triggered my skepticism), in my estimation, a 16 brix one can be excellent, and not just good to anyone that doesn’t live in CA and grow there own fruit or buy from an excellent small grower, and I really consider my low acid varieties that get up as high as 28 to be a different but not a superior fruit. To my palate, any nectarine over 16 is likely to be excellent if it has acid with that sugar.

3 Likes
#22

The numbers don’t look too bad to me, the cherry numbers are definitely low though. It is all an approximation.

@jcguarneri yes they could mean the stalks of the sweet sorghum. But, alfalfa is also pretty high. Carrots out-brixing apples, etc.

2 Likes
#23

That’s all fine Alan but how often have you had 24-28 brix low acid nectarines?

#24

the brix/ acid balance definitely makes a difference. look at the romance series sour cherries. some of them have brix as high as sweet cherries but also have more acidity. to someone like me who likes acidity they taste on par with sweets. to someone who doesnt, they dont taste sweet enough.

5 Likes
#25

FN, don’t feel disrespected- you are the king of brix- at least east of CA, but I had them at my site and another this last season in spite of ample rain and I cherished every one that held to the tree until ripe. The only really productive one I grow is Carene- maybe because it is early enough to dodge a lot of the wasp damage.

Honeyblaze and another on my property ripened a few to that high level, but I had stopped trying to grow them because Honey Royale is so inconsistent here and what little fruit it produces is exceedingly hard to protect from squirrels as well as wasps.

My own Carene tree died, but it was a consistent producer of high brix fruit before that. I thought I had a replacement but it turned out I got graft wood mixed up and the tree had Flavormay peach instead.

For you, the low acid high brix nects are your standard and staple, but you needn’t think that those of us with better luck growing lower brix higher acid fruit are deprived… unless the exclusivity of it brings you pleasure.

Some of my customers are absolutely thrilled just to harvest 13-14 brix peaches from their own trees. They couldn’t be happier- unless you spoiled them with a box of yours and jaded their taste buds. .

4 Likes
#26

To me, much of the appeal of dates is in the texture as much as the flavor. I compare good dates to caramel, more than to other fruit.

Texture is a big part of eating experience.

6 Likes
#27

I’ve seen the chart before, and its interesting.

But I don’t know where they are getting these watermelons. You can’t buy “average” ones most supermarkets around here.

I agree with the apples. Plums are too low.

I keep this sort of variation in mind when considering nutrition info, and health studies and so forth. Most of the calories from fruit are sugar, reflected in this brix range. You can see that two fruits of the same type and weight can be different by a factor of 2 in how much sugar they contain. Which also means the calories scale roughly that way as well. And presumably these are the ranges in commercial fruits. As we’ve often discussed here, homegrown can vary even more widely, especially when managed for it.

Likewise, glycemic index, affects on diabetics, sugar/fiber ratio and things like that can vary widely.

4 Likes
#28

I like the chart, and this sort of thing is a matter of opinion and personal preference, it is not science. The more accurate term for brix is Soluble Solids Concentration (but it is easier to say brix), which reflects the fact that brix is a matter of total soluble solids, sugars and non-sugar flavor components. That’s why one can find a brix rating for vegetables, and it’s true that a higher brix vegetable is more flavorful.

As for Alan’s insistence on claiming that his 16 brix nectarines are excellent, that reminds me of a story that a fox once wandered into a garden that had high grape clusters, after many failed jumps he finally walked away while saying that he doesn’t like grapes in the first place (sorry @alan, couldn’t resist :blush:).

I concur with @fruitnut , an excellent nectarine is one with brix above 22-23, at that brix level I equally like the Honey series and the Arctic series (in addition to a few other non Zaiger varieties). Also at this brix level, high acid nectarines are very good to excellent, even though I clearly prefer the low acid fruit.

5 Likes
#29

It’s the sugar/acid balance that’s important.
High brix alone is not proof of quality.
The Alden grape can taste good at 12 brix, because of low acidity.
A Chardonnay grape at 22 brix
would taste acidic.

2 Likes
#30

Studying the brix of fruit is very important if studied wisely.

I am not a fan of apricots, the ones in the stores are very low in brix, and nowhere near sweet enough for me, home grown if you have the right cultivator(s) and the right climate then apricots are sweet enough for a lot of the people who don’t like the store bought ones.

I don’t grow apricots nor do I test their brix, yet the peaches in the stores seem way sweeter than the apricots in the store seem to me. I much prefer store bought peaches over store bought apricots, and it has nothing to do with the peel, I sort of like dried apricots because they are sweeter. Sugar can be like a filler that tones down the taste, then again if the taste is too strong it’s nice if there was more sweetness. A great example of that is pomegranates, some varieties of pomegranate are too acidic and too sour to eat fresh, yet still have as much if not more sugar than a normal sweet pomegranate ‘that’s too sweet for most has’. Studying the brix and the acidity of the fruit we eat can help us understand why we like or dislike the fruit, can help us understand how ripe the fruit is, can make fruit eating more safe for people with sensitivities to acidity and for diabetics. Everyone has different tastes too, some people eat lemons raw.

2 Likes
#31

Do I really get to throw all of you for a loop? There are two senses involved here, not one. The first sense is the sense of smell. The second is sense of taste. Our nose associates smell and taste together in our brain. How we perceive a given fruit is a blend of the two perceptions. Add to that that our taste buds taste 5 different base items, sweet, sour, salt, bitter, and umami. I can give you a perfect example why that chart above is not going to satisfy everyone. Sungold is a super sweet tomato that can easily brix 11 or 12. Many people swear by it as the best tomato in the world. I can eat it, but to me it is too sweet plus it has a repellent smell. I would say it was an okay tomato otherwise, but that smell is enough to make me avoid eating it. Similar comparisons can be made with peaches, nectarines, plums, apples, etc. because each one has an aroma and a flavor and a sweetness.

Then there are individual taste preferences. Some people love sweet to such an extent they will overlook all other characteristics in search of that sugar taste. Some people want strong umami which I often define as a rich old fashioned tomato with brix about 6 that is so acid it irritates the corners of your mouth as you eat it with juice dripping down your chin. Then there are people like me who want a balanced fruit with strong umami and strong sweetness with just a touch of tartness. These people might eat a 24 brix nectarine but consider it too sweet because it is bland. They might eat a 16 brix peach with lots of flavor and a touch of tartness and consider it excellent because sugar and flavor are balanced. Then there are the people who want tart. There are plenty of examples of tart fruit out there, but I will name 3 tomatoes with the trait. They are Green Zebra, Jaune Flammee’, and Goose Creek. People who want tart fruit wont touch that self-same 16 brix peach with lots of flavor because it is not tart enough for their flavor profile.

Which are you? Sweet? Rich Umami? Tart? or Balanced? Some people are “super tasters” meaning they have more taste buds than normal and commonly report flavor nuances most people can’t detect. I have better than normal taste perceptions, but a friend in North Carolina blows me away when it comes to tasting nuances in fruit flavors.

To answer the initial question, no, higher brix does not mean more flavorful, however, it is very common for high brix fruit to also have a good flavor balance therefore to be described as excellent.

10 Likes
#32

Higher brix can mean more properly ripe, ‘if you are using it to compare fruit of the same cultivator’, more ripe can mean more flavor. At least some fruit gains both sweetness and flavor as it ripens.

1 Like
#33

Surprising isn’t it? But there is a reason why you can grow cattle on sorghum like nothing else. Also, you see here the power of C4 vs C3 metabolic pathways. Not just in the sugar content but also in the fat content of the plant.

#34

I have a thing for wild cranberries, which are as close to negative brix as any fruit. Probably brix does not matter between fruits, but it matters within varieties of the same fruit…

2 Likes
#35

My claim is that excellence is in the mouth of the beholder and I think people (perhaps, to some extent, all of us) often enjoy a sense of exclusivity when they can have something other people can’t- that what they have everyone should want to posses but poor them- they can’t. This attitude seems particularly rampant to me with wine. I cannot claim to know your motivation, however, anymore than you can know what pleases other people’s tastes.

I’m able to achieve high brix nectarines and during last season had access to both low acid-high brix nects and lower brix ones that had acid punch. I’m grateful that I enjoy both just as I enjoy tart and sweet apples (in this case at least 19 brix is often necessary with my fav apples and our weather doesn’t always allow it- poor me). Oh, and how I pity those who lack the capacity to enjoy the whole range of taste experiences- poor them :wink:

Apples were not quite at peak this season, but with enough surprising exceptions. I had a couple of Yellow Delicious apples that surprised the hell out of me at a clients site this week. The brix were so high that the apples had water core-this was in mid-Dec. Other strains of YD have already gone mushy on the tree but this variety (or is it somehow the specific spot- there are other YD’s on the site without the same fruit) was almost as crunchy as the Fujis on the same site- AND SWEETER with true apple aroma. Now the question is will the tree produce similar apples next year when we are unlikely to experience such a mild Autumn where ripening can continue into Dec. At any rate, I will be taking some scion wood. Harvest season appears to be ending tomorrow night with 19 F predicted.

That said, I have a nice stash of Jonagold (Jonaprince strain which, to me, is much better than the original) in my fridge that are plenty sweet and will enjoy them just as I will enjoy my main stash of excellent, high brix-high acid Goldrush along with a lot of other varieties, including a lot of Spitz which are disappointing this season. I like a wide range of flavors to choose from- just sweet can become cloying to my palate.

Whatever one likes and has access to should be their favorite. My main quest for excellence is when I’m walking through orchards and sampling- I never enjoy fruit as much after it has been harvested- so it seems to be more than just about taste for me.

4 Likes
#36

I still feel the same way on what I said above.

#37

I don’t think of Ark Black as being low brix, more like moderate brix with high acid, I I like it also, but this year I discovered King David which is smaller and had a tad more sugar to go with that acid. I think it’s now one of my top 5 favorites if it continues to perform like it did this year.

2 Likes
#38

Fruitnut! Since I now live so close to Africa, and due to our Moroccan population, Dates are everywhere in the marketplace. The prize dates are still Medjools, but they are used for sweeting, not really just for eating. They are found mostly in Tajines, and curries and baked desserts. Too much sweetness for eating them out of hand.

5 Likes
#39

I really can’t get past the title of this thread. Brix is NOT “so important”. If it were, everyone would be eating dates, jujubes and nectarines almost exclusively. Brix is just one of many different factors that is relevant to fruit flavor. As Dave Wilson Nursery notes -

"As an indicator of fruit quality, Brix is useful, but with limitations. Many fresh-fruit lovers prefer fruits that are sweet, but with balanced acid and sugar, rather than excessively sugary. Others prefer low-acid fruits, with a relatively slight sweetness being very acceptable. Some people do not like the texture of fully ripe (soft ripe) stone fruits. Overripe fruit can have high Brix, but with diminished flavor and appeal.

In any case, Brix alone is not a measurement or scale of fruit desirability. Brix measurements are perhaps most appropriate for monitoring a food product or process, or for measuring the degree of maturity of a particular crop, rather than to compare cultivars, which may differ greatly in components other than percentage of soluble solids."

I can see that sometimes, for some specific fruit cultivars, some people prefer that specific cultivar at its peak brix. But some people also prefer that same cultivar with lower brix readings. For nectarines, I prefer any cultivar when it’s harder, less juicy and thus has lower brix. One of my favorite jujubes is Autumn Delight, which has a lower brix reading than many other jujubes. I also prefer dates at their crispy khalal stage when they have relatively lower brix readings. And I prefer dried dates that have the best flavor, not the highest brix readings (more on dates below).

There have been studies as to how people perceive brix in different watermelon cultivars. Not only do people’s preferences not match up with higher brix readings, but people often can’t identify which cultivars have the higher brix readings. How can higher brix be “so important” if people don’t prefer it in actual taste tests, and can’t identify it by tasting either?

Another factor to consider is that people taste different sugars differently. While a 30 brix sucrose reading and a 30 fructose brix reading should taste the same, they do not. Fructose tastes sweeter than sucrose which in turn tastes sweeter than glucose. Some date cultivars have all three sugars. Some have small amounts of maltose and mannose as well (and a very few contain rhamnose). Some have a predominance of sucrose. Some have a predominance of fructose. Aside from the difference in apparent sweetness among the three sugars, some people can also distinguish flavor differences in the three sugars. The Sukkaru dried date cultivar has 68% sugar, of which 54% is sucrose, 8% glucose and 6% fructose. But most dates have no sucrose at all, and instead have a combination of fructose and glucose with fructose predominating. Deglet Noor dates contain fructose, glucose and sucrose in almost equal amounts, while Medjool dates have fructose and glucose. Most date cultivars do not have glucose predominating but when they do it is usually only by a small amount over fructose. But the sugars in the cultivar Khalas Al Kharj are an amazing 95% glucose. The taste of Khalas dates is exceptional, but its brix reading is nothing special for a dried date. Only the type of sugar is unusual.

“According to sugar type, date varieties are classified into (i) invert sugar varieties containing mainly the invert sugars glucose, and fructose (e.g. Barhi and Saidy), (ii) mixed sugar varieties (e.g. Khadrawy, Halawy, Zahidi, and Sayer), and (iii) cane sugar varieties containing sucrose as the main sugar (e.g. Deglet Noor and Deglet Beidha). There is some agreement and disparity in the classification of date varieties according to moisture content or sugar type suggesting that the relationship is not strictly linear possible due to interference from fiber content and type.” (See the article “Date fruit (Phoenix dactylifera L.): An underutilized food seeking industrial valorization”)

So, if you think high brix readings are “so important”, then you should be eating dates in the dried (tamar) stage:
Wanan dried dates-

Wanan dates dried
Wanan dates dried850×850 136 KB

If you want soft but not dry fruit, you should be eating dates in the rutab stage:
Sukkari rutab dates-

Sukkari rutab dates
Sukkari rutab dates3024×3024 1.66 MB

And if you prefer firm fruit, then you should be eating dates in the khalal (aka bisr) stage:
Zaghloul khalal dates
Zaghloul variety dates in the khalal fresh eating stage in Egypt

14 Likes
#40

You don’t seem to know what brix is, it helps people understand what’s in the food that they are eating! Acidity helps to hide what normally makes sugar obviously there, a lack of acidity makes things seem way more sweet than they really are.