Young apple pruning question

It ends when they get too dry, esp newly planted trees.

Apple roots slow down when soil temps get out of the mid '70’s or so- apples like cooler soil than stone fruit. Dryness can be dealt with- usually. Mulch would help, but if night and day temps stay warm it only takes you so far. A tree that just lost most of its functional root system (most any transplant) has almost caught up with the energy deficit after it has mature leaves for a couple weeks- then it can start to recover- remove the leaves at that point, and I reckon you likely set it back a season.

Interesting discussion. Actually the soil is a clay loam but it has been depleted as it was an old garden site. With the tilled soil and the slope it has suffered from erosion and of course it isn’t as good as the soil on the other side of the drive a few feet away. It does hold water much better than it looks.

Katy


These trees looked like that last year, long, whippy branches reaching for the sky. They staked the branches down with twine almost horizontal, and it controlled the vertical growth without robbing any of the tree’s vigor; these are on M111. They also notched a lot of buds, and the tree branched out fine.

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I’ve heard of notching buds but not really familiar with it. ???

I also have some whips that my pruning source says to leave the central leader. Take off the next one(s) down and leave three scaffold branches and bend them. Most of these whips only have two shoots…a couple of leaf buds that didn’t form a branch and then a naked trunk. I was wondering if I could put a bend on the lower of the top shoot as a scaffold branch and go from there. Should I not have some of those buds too?

To me the photo makes the soil look like beach sand- I should know better than to jump to conclusions from a photo. Need to get the hands in the dirt.

It does look like that in the photo. I think because of the erosion it crusts up really bad and with clay in it you would think it’s solid like that all the way though but underneath that crust is usually some moisture. Granted it needs a lot of amendments. And all that’s there now is dandelions…mowed dandelions!!

Whenever I see that much exposed soil I assume it is terrible. Not even weeds find it acceptable for full habitation.

Notching is just shallow cuts below the green cambium to wood above a node so the flow of nutrients and water stops there and the flow of growth stalling hormone is kept from it (or maybe it is just to stop the hormone). The node would be on the trunk side of the cut. For that purpose you would probably only cut about a quarter of the total diameter of the branch. I do it with quick swipes of a pruning saw.

This disagrees with my experience. Last year, I grew a bunch of different trees in 5-gal pots through a very hot California summer. Despite shading, protection, and daily drip irrigation, the soil in the pots was very hot. Until early-mid June, stone fruit trees (apricot seedlings, plums on Krymsk-1, cherries on Krymsk-5) did very well, but then real heat started and they suffered badly. All trees on K-1 and K-5 died by mid-July, about half of apricot seedlings died by the end of summer, and those that survived were in pretty bad shape. Meanwhile, five apple trees on M-111 thrived, grew throughout the summer and showed no sign of stress. Pomegranates, olives and figs also did well but this was expected, the great performance by apples was quite surprising. All potted trees were in the same location under the same conditions.

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Same here; I pot apples in 5 gal pots every year, even in 113F heat they thrive if the trunks are painted white.

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You cut through the cambium layer (we use a hacksaw blade) which makes the bud think it’s at the top of the tree, and apical dominance makes it sprout the bud. Use a toothpick to push the new shoots down to horizontal if they don’t already have that growth habit. Notch just before spring or the bark heals before it will sprout.

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The research my statement is based on was about ideal growing temperatures in real soil, not the level of endurance in the more extreme conditions of pot culture. Unfortunately after several minutes of searching I can’t find the research, but it is out there somewhere, and apple trees grow more vigorously at a lower soil temp than peaches according to this research.

In my nursery, apple trees do much better in pots than peach trees- this is probably why most nurseries don’t offer large peach trees for sale- they require a lot more root space than apples to grow vigorously. I’ve actually stopped offering peach trees in pots and move them bare root or in in-ground bags while they are dormant and bare roots generally work better. I’m talking about 2-2.5" caliber trees- well branched and of mature height.

The real question here is about whether cutting off the entire functioning canopy of a tree is a good idea after the tree has already invested its energy into the development of those leaves and the leaves are now supplying energy for a severely damaged root system. I feel pretty certain that is a bad idea. The tree is already under more than enough stress.

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@applenut
On the whips I have placed some toothpicks. Is this appropriate? The leafy buds at the bottom…will they actually become branches or just stay leafy buds? Is it okay to bend down the second in line for central leader to use as one of the scaffold branches. I know absolutely nothing about this other than what I’ve garnered from you guys and the pruning guide sent to me by Century Farm so, I don’t mean to bug you guys too much but I think this “pruning and training” is one of the most difficult things to understand and also to carry out…:flushed:

On the big lanky tree: can I notch at this time? Or do I need to wait for next year? Do I just find nodes for scaffold placement considering apparent health of the node?

Thanks
@fruitnut
@alan
And everyone else!

Katy

You really don’t want branches lower than about 30-36 inches on the trunk, or they’ll just be on the ground when loaded with fruit. You can notch at any time, but I’d say the trees in your photos will probably be OK, I’d tie that vertical branch in the first photo to the stake.

Most of the trees we notch are whips or branched trees that still have lots of “blind” wood.

But temporary branches can accelerate growth until tree is bearing age. I don’t believe that with apples there is an advantage to choosing permanent branches early with most varieties. The simplest and quickest way to size up a tree is to prune no more than necessary until tree reaches bearing size and age. Generally, the less you prune the faster it grows and the more quickly it becomes a productive tree. To sustain a strong and dominant leader this means removing all branches more than half the diameter of the trunk where the branch meets the trunk (for Honeycrisp, for more vigorous varieties 1/3rd). When tree is ready to bear its first crop you can start thinning to make room for your permanent branches.

It doesn’t work perfectly for every variety, but for a beginner it is a great way to size a tree up in a hurry and once it is the height you want you can more visually understand where you want the placement of your permanent scaffolds. This is the Bas van Ende method which he used when managing thousands of acres of commercial orchards in Washington State. It was a good way to easily explain to pruning crews what to do and led to very early development of productive trees before they stopped growing free standing trees and mostly went full dwarf with support.

Here is a free article I found where he explains this method for pears- if you search farther you may find similar text about apples. I can’t provide a link for some reason but if you do a google search with these words it will come right up. Bas van Ende /Pruning-and-vigour-control-in-established-trees_.pdf

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I have been combing through posts as I am trying to plan what to do with my apple trees. Most are on M111 and we’re put in the ground March 2018 as bare roots. The first picture is a Baldwin, the second a Belle de Beskoop with little, to no side branching and the third a Braeburn, (unknown rootstock, listed as semidwarf at my local nursery). If I am interpreting what I am reading correctly, it would be better to let them grow with no pruning this year, but some attempts at shaping?

Thank you!
Carrie

Check guides on this forum.

Hi Carrie,

This doesn’t speak directly to the question that you asked, but if I’m not mistaken, Baldwin and Belle de Boskoop are both triploids, which means that they won’t pollinate other apple trees (or themselves, for that matter). That means that unless there are other apple or crabapple trees with fertile pollen nearby, any pollination that takes place among your three trees will depend on the Braeburn.

The good news is that Braeburn itself is supposed to be self-fertile (according to orange pippin.com), so it can produce fruit without pollen from another tree, though whether it will produce a full crop without pollination is something I don’t know.

The bad news is that if something were to happen and you were to lose the Braeburn, you wouldn’t get any fruit from any of the trees (unless, again, there happens to be another apple tree with fertile pollen nearby). And Braeburn is supposed to be pretty disease-prone (again according to orangepippin), so the risk is a bit higher than it might be otherwise. For example, I notice in another post that you have been dealing with fire blight on your pear tree. The orangepippin info suggests that Braeburn - and Baldwin - can be pretty susceptible to that, too.

With that in mind, it might be prudent to introduce another variety with fertile pollen to the mix. You could certainly plant another tree (the season is coming up…), or you could graft an additional variety onto one of the trees that you already have (the season is coming up for that, too). In either case, you would be looking for a variety that is (1) diploid, meaning it has fertile pollen, (2) a good pollinator - some diploids are better than others, (3) a good grower - vigorous, hardy, and disease resistant, and (4) produces good fruit. If I were going to suggest one variety off the top of my head that ought to nail all of these categories, it would be Hoople’s Antique Gold, which is a russeted sport of Golden Delicious. But there are certainly good options out there.

(If you have not grafted before, there’s a lot of great information on this forum about how to go about it. Definitely something you want to learn if you will be growing fruit trees.)

Thanks for your reply! I only took photos of three of my twelve apple trees because the rest are a similar shape, I didn’t even think about the fact that I shared the two triploids. I also have; Sweetbough, Frostbite, Wickson, Harrison, Monark, Jonathan, Newtown pippin, Kerry Irish, and Macoun and a neighbor has nice, mature red and golden delicious. Provided my bees do their job (and live through the winter), I’m hoping I have it covered!

I am maxed out for trees in my yard, so I am interested in learning how to graft.

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I have been digging through them! I am trying to process it all, and hoping I’ve come up with a sensical conclusion. :slight_smile: