I am looking to buy a black raspberry plant and I only have room for one, unfortunately so I want to make it count. I’m in the Northeast U.S., in a major city, zone 7. Taste matters to me most, followed by how it helps biodiversity and how well it produces (in that order).
I am trying to choose between buying a wild/native Black Raspberry or a cultivated type like Jewel or Bristol or Munger.
So, what is the best tasting Black Raspberry in your opinion and are you able to describe the taste? I’m mainly looking for fresh eating but might eventually get into making jams and syrups.
I like both sweet and tart fruits, but I have two yellow raspberries, which I find very sweet.
Do you find that the cultivated types also support biodiversity like the native variety does?
I’m not sure what you mean by helping biodiversity? I’m in the northeast, probably a bit more northern than you and I have a Black Raspberry that popped up the old fashioned way next to some shrubs behind my house.
The local fauna will definitely enjoy your raspberries as well if that’s what your interested in. In this case the animals can’t tell the difference. MAYBE if you get a thornless black raspberry it will have a different impact vs thorns but other than that nope. Also when you say “wild” well honestly I have no idea if the one I got is a ‘wild’ specimen or simply a seed from a cultivated variety a bird liked and decided to poop out on my lawn. But the black raspberry is native in many parts of the northeast, and the cultivated varities aren’t exactly different species. Well as long as theyre pure Rubus Occidentalis black raspberry.
I’d say focus on flavor and productivity but go with one of the bred varities. If you want a bona fide wild black raspberry I’ll dig some up and send you some but if youre only getting one plant you might as well look for stuff that is better than average. Mine is very tasty though,
Perhaps “supporting biodiversity” by dealing with a nursery source that specializes in native species, non-hybrid plants. Otherwise one caneberry plant is not significant. The support will come mainly from blossom time and bee visits.
Black raspberry taste, to me, is not mainly a sweet/tart profile but rather a deep, earthy flavor unlike other caneberries. Main objection by most people to fresh eating is their seediness, so large-fruited varieties are preferred in that case.
It seems that for most people, taste preference is dominated by sweetness. The higher the Brix, the better. Personally, I love black raspberries but the flavor is more subtle and nuanced, not just a slap in the face with sugar.
Thanks! by helping biodiversity, I just mean supporting pollinators and other wildlife. Of course, I’m only one backyard but I like to do what I can even if it’s small. I’ve heard that sometimes cultivars aren’t as great as supporting wildlife as the native version so I was curious if it was similar for black raspberries or if it didn’t matter. If I ever find more space in my backyard somehow I will take you up on your offer to send some. Thanks again!
I have Jewel and it is my favorite among all the raspberry varieties we have (red, yellow & black); others have said Bristol might have better taste than Jewel but I have not planted Bristol yet. Bristol may be more productive than Jewel.
I am aiming for staggered crops with Bristol, Jewel and Mac Black so will be able to make better evaluations in the future.
All the above are floricanes and primocane black raspberries have issues. Niwot has taste issues. Tahi a new floricane from Nourse seems a novelty (no thorns) and primocanes have to deal with SWD.
With good soil and plenty of sun, black raspberries are easy and rewarding. Nourse is a great source and their bare root canes have enormous root structure.
All raspberries have shallow roots that are just below the soil surface and spread out then send suckers vertically as new canes; but this means they are all susceptible to root rot and planting them in a raised bed will prevent and minimize problems in the future
I would avoid wild black caps - you want bigger size berries and lots of production
Good luck
Bristol = munger (east coast calls them Bristol and west coast calls it munger)
That got started somewhere on some forum and keeps being brought up…
Hard to know nowadays unless you grow them side by side… and then its a gamble if you have either that is true to name. But history once had them as separate cultivars.
My black raspberries have always been in flat ground but I had to resort to a raised bed to keep red raspberries going long-term here. 37" precip per year, mostly in winter. Black raspberries are early enough here to avoid most of the SWD season.
Identical is a strong word… the 2012 DNA study came up with 97 percent similar and that is going with the assumption that they had true to name cultivars from over 100 years since the naming…and they admit that they cant really even verify the pedigrees.
‘Bristol’ ‘Watson Prolific’ x ‘Honeysweet’, 1934
‘Munger’ Reputed to be ‘Schaefer’ open-pollinated
I have no desire to debate this at all…just saying that you are probably correct if bought from a nursery today that they are either the same or similar… however Stark Bros. sells them both… and i have an email from them somewhere that they state that they are different. Maybe they have both that are true to name. They have been in business 200 yrs…
Heres the DNA testing that i was referring to… maybe there is a different one that they are talking about?
Even the most recently developed black raspberry cultivars are not more than a few generations removed from truly wild ancestors.
Here is a test where someone grew both Bristol and Munger and found them to be similar but different…
What was surprising is that Bristol out‐produced all other varieties in
our trial. Bristol averaged 2.6 lbs. per plant, while Munger produced 1.3 lbs. per plant. Munger produced between July 14‐July 29, while Bristol kept on giving from July 14 all the way through August 11 th with two highly productive weeks centering on July 14‐21.
I think that 2012 Finn study you linked above is the one Indiana Berry is talking about
“The 21 SSR loci were unable to distinguish between 6 of the cultivars: Bristol, Cumberland, Munger, New Logan, Plum Farmer, and Shuttleworth” and this was different from a 2003 study showing Bristol and Munger were only 97% similarity (as were New Logan and Plum Farmer - Weber 2003)
all 6 together on the dendrogram (fig 3)
This paper had a lot of potential issues: their data indicated the supposed pedigrees of Jewel, Dundee, Bristol, Huron, Allen, and Haut didn’t add up…
The Finn paper concludes most of these black raspberries are all very closely related, only a few generations removed from wild black caps, and so lots of potential for improvement through breeding
so they may or may not be identical (Finn 2012 paper says yes but several other papers say no; common sense says no because munger is not cold tolerant while bristol is…); it is safe to say they are closely related
I bought some ‘Black Cap’ rasps from Burnt Ridge last year.
It says its native ‘throughout WY’ so i kinda wondered if the zone listing was correct as Wyoming has some pretty cold locations.
It really stands out amongst the others as its canes are rife with spines.
As noted Burnt Ridge sells/sold ‘seedlings’ which means that they grow true to seed…and they are listed as native… so i bought some for myself and the birds to make them native here.
Some folks call them ‘black caps’ some call them blue raspberries and some call them purple.
Not on topic at all but for all i know it might be ‘the best black raspberry’ i should have fruit this year…and might plant some seeds if they are worthy of growing for biodiversity.
That depends where you are. We have two or three very different black raspberries. The biggest black raspberry I have seen is from a wild found in Ontario. I used the wild in breeding and the results are some really large black raspberries. The wild and it’s seedlings also are very prolific.
Yes, the trait appears to be dominate. Those are floricane berries. The primocane are even bigger. More info on Lynn’s here. It’s a beast of a plant. I tip rooted one to give away and let it grow a year first. It turned into this massive crown which put out numerous canes. When I dug it out each cane separated and had roots. Like three or four plants in one. Each with good size canes. Hopefully they are doing well in their new homes. And if not let me know we can try again.
