Two trees in one hole would just be a small hedgerow. Multiple trees in one hole is the primary tenet of BYOC. Pruning is summed up as:
Multi-plantings:thin out the center to allow plenty of sunlight into the interior of the group of trees.
In my case, I have a raised planter on the South side of the house that once had a fruitless mulberry tree, but was perfect for a multi-planting. I planted three peaches on 18" centers: Here they are a couple of Winters ago:
They leaf out to make a somewhat solid mass. Here they are riding out the blast furnace heat of August last year (in the top right corner of the picture):
Very beautiful yard, Clint. And, a perfect example of why we folks in California, with limited growing space, like to use this BYOC technique. That, and the fact that our humidity levels allow us to do so
High sunlight is just as important as low humidity in making multiple trees per hole work. I have both and prefer a closely spaced hedgerow. But mine are all orchard like plantings in rows. In landscape plantings the multiple trees per hole idea comes into it’s own. BYOC is mainly aimed at CA and more so Southern CA.
I agree, but some of it can be used here. Well modifications of the style. MSU has methods of it’s own that work better here to keep trees small. The only fruit tree I use for hedges is Cornus mas, a dogwood. Others do use anything, but I would rather not. Just too much disease around. Ancient English espalier techniques work good here too, and look fantastic. To me it is more ornamental than any other method.
Just because someone thinks BYOC might not work for them (for whatever reason), or has tried it and it didn’t work for them, should not be enough to rule it out completely. Do your own homework and trials. Our host @scottfsmith has used BYOC concepts successfully in his Nor-East locale. He would have to speak to whatever successes and/or failures he’s encountered. If you’re a person that doesn’t like following directions, and prefers winging it or thinks they know everything, BYOC isn’t a good thing to try --no matter where you live.
Proclaiming that BYOC can only work in So Cal minimizes my (and others) accomplishments with this method, and worst of all is untrue. Will it work for you in your locale? I don’t know, nobody else can say for sure that it won’t. I can’t say that it would work for someone even here in So Cal if they fit the personality profile detailed above.
In the east I would say the planting/spacing methods of BYOC work very well, but the pruning methods need to be modified. I started out pretty much following the DWN instructions but got too much wood and disease and too little fruit. I am still evolving my pruning plan and I get a little better each year. Recently I have been experimenting with more “grape style” pruning, a more or less a single fruiting plane about 5’ off the ground. This is done by tying down branches to make umbrella-like scaffolds, and then pruning out all the waterspouts each spring. I had very close stands of euro plums and euro pears that in spite of more thinning cuts were still not producing fruit. But with this umbrella system I have finally been able to start getting them fruiting. With only a single fruiting plane there is a lot less shading going on. For the other less challenging fruits all I really needed to do was more thinning as well as more shoot heading.
Too bad you feel like that. I know most eastern methods would not work for you, but I don’t feel bad or even care, let alone feel my mastering of eastern backyard culture is minimized by you not using it.
Right, it’s not really designed for here, agree. Sounds like you developed a modified espalier technique. As fruiting there too is in one plane. Also just to note the English espalier techniques seem to work all over.
I lose close to 25% of all trees to disease before they even fruit, I have grown 5 sweet cherry trees, and so far 5 have a serious disease. I have lost 2 peach trees of 7. And 1 plum tree of 1. I lost them to bacterial or fungal canker, and extreme cold down right just killing them. If I plant 4 in one hole and one develops canker, all will get it, not a good idea. If 8 feet from each other maybe I will get lucky and my other trees will be fine.
Unless you have grown here, it’s hard to give good advice.
I don’t do standard fertilizing as I don’t notice nutrient deficiency issues. Depending on where the trees are they may get some wood chips every few years. The one thing I do is give each tree a handful of Tree Tone which is an organic fertilizer with micronutrients. One handful per tree is basically nothing compared to the pounds of various recommendations, but I figure if there is something the tree is desperately short on it will appreciate it.
Best to view BYOC as an engineered system, just like DWN’s blueberry instructions, drip irrigation, ollas, EarthBoxes and other self irrigating planters. Think cake recipe here. You can mess around with all the variables and end up with varying degrees of failure and/or success. But you can’t say that the recipe, system or “thing” doesn’t work if you don’t actually follow it. Applying your own knowledge, experiences and theories on top of any system just isn’t a proper application of said system.
Following instructions is truly a lost art and well worth practicing.
I’m a strong believer in following recipes… when all else fails. It rarely does.
Same thing in the kitchen- recipes are either guidelines or only for the occasional cook.
Full employment of your senses, creative and cognitive ability is stymied by blindly following recipes- revolt against the machine and know true freedom
In serious mode here, commercial growers are burdened by the requirement of highest efficiency and are thus virtual slaves to university guidelines. This is a strong trend in our culture and economy where careful measurements are made to evaluate various methods and to determine scientifically the best (most productive and profitable) way to do EVERYTHING.
Traditional French wine making requires the use of the nose, the eyes and the palate to create an excellent bottle of wine. CA winemakers developed methods using careful calculations with instruments to make a better bottle of wine for a cheaper price. A lot more interesting to make wine the old fashioned French way but who buys wine for the winemakers enjoyment?
MrClint, following DWN’s BYOC recipe exactly in the east is like following a standard cake recipe exactly at high altitude - recipes are implicitly parameterized by the location in which they were made and they may not translate to a new location. I was at a California vineyard a few years ago and the guy told me he usually does one disease spray a year on his organic grapes. Out here its barely even possible to grow organic grapes with ten times as many sprays, and its not because people are not following the correct spraying recipe.
There is probably a eastern version of BYOC which could be turned into a recipe, but its going to differ from the DWN recipe in several ways due to sun, soil, humidity, temperature, and other differences.
That’s what I call the instructions Michigan State University and other Midwestern Universities give to backyard growers, Generally open structure, small size via pruning, IPM info. current insect activity, when to spray fungicides etc.
When I first started cooking I followed the recipes and failed badly, and then looked at all recipes.com and they had reviews suggesting ways the recipe failed or could be improved. Now as an experienced cook recipes are just suggestions, I know enough about cooking to adapt recipes to my needs, equipment, and availability of ingredients. I would not follow the DWN recipes for a blueberry mix as the ingredients don’t exist here. So it’s not even possible to follow exactly. We do not have pathway bark here, no such thing. I would never follow a recipe exactly, as pointed out a huge mistake. Success is gained by knowledge and experience. The BYOC is really just a marketing ploy anyway to sell more trees. One of the best I have ever seen. As you can see it works well with some people. It shows one the importance of marketing your product. No doubt the DWN people are well educated in advertising and marketing, it would be interesting to see the credentials of the owners. Here is some info http://usbusinessexecutive.com/agriculture/case-studies/dave-wilson-nursery-inc-grounded-family-ownership-and-growing-smarter-75
My guess is less than 5% of the trees they sell are to the home grower market, so its not like a big change in sales there is going to make their company. I have been very impressed overall with DWN, as your link shows they are family-run company and those companies tend to place more emphasis on doing things right and not just going after profit. I’m sure the increased sales are one reason why they market BYOC, but its not just a groundless marketing ploy but a great idea as well.
Agreed, A company is going to have to sell me though, and in the case of DWN, they have. I think for such a big company they do a great job. In the end the product has to be good, and it’s one of the best no doubt. I also like that they actually listen to us, the backyard grower. Many of my suggestions have been implemented. All the same BYOC is a marketing tool, I don’t wear a tin foil hat, I think marketing, packaging etc must be top rate for a company to succeed. I have owned my own business I’m very conservative and pro-business. I like capitalism. I have three of their trees in my backyard. They do suggest cultivars for the east. They want to know, and are sincere as to how well my trees do.
On the DWN forums I have a running commentary of my backyard, and when I stopped updating it, they asked me if I could keep it up. Very nice people, I would work for a company like that.
I sort of disagree about going after profit, without that, they would have had to lay off people. Profit is a must to stay in business. So many think screwing the customer for profit is what big business does, that is not anyway to stay in business. Treating the customer right leads to huge profits. DWN is a perfect example, doubling profit during hard times, very impressive.
If BYOC didn’t work, it would be a terrible marketing ploy, no it’s a great marketing ploy as it works and sells lot’s more trees. I’m sure they won marketing awards for that one!
Sometime in the future when I’m boired I’m going to talk to them about refining the concept to regional BYOC instructions. Our input, how we do could give them good suggestions. What works well here, what does not. The concept is not really new. In Europe they have been doing this forever. We are now looking at their orchards for ideas on how to implement pedestrian orchards here. The KGB pruning for cherries is based on the Spanish system modified to fit the Midwest and the Pacific Northwest. BYOC is just a modified pedestrian orchard for the backyard.
If DWN’s methods, instruction sheets, videos, etc, didn’t work it would have a detrimental impact on their sales. They have a vested interest in providing information that works well for their customers. The only way to know if the system will work for you is if you do a trial and follow the instructions. You can contact them directly if you have any questions.
Exactly right, it does work, it just needs some tweeking depending on where you live, but the basic concept is proven to work for decades now in Europe. As mentioned by DWN itself, is it’s main market is CA, so it caters to that market. Makes sense to me.
All we are saying is some techniques need modification as that makes them work better here. I know DWN would agree often stating how you arrange, how you prune, how big trees are, is totally up to you. That is said over and over again in the videos.
