2018 Grafting Thread


#261

I know. Here we hit 100 once and 98, 95 etc. Where you are it went to 90 and here it went to 80. 80 was great for grafting. My results are phenomenal in-ground.

Dax


#262

Cleaned out all the stored scions from the refrigerator this morning. Not that there was a big need but I couldn’t resist trying four more grafts this morning from my January stored scions. Most of the stored wood still appeared viable.


#263

Clark, maybe the weather was my problem, too, then. I tried grafting for the first time this year. Did 22 grafts. The scions were in nice shape from Bob Purvis. It appears that only a Yakima plum grafted to a Superior plum that I planted last spring is growing. Somewhat disappointing, but one is better than none.


#264

I just got off the phone with Cliff England. Others may find some of this interesting.

@Arhus76 I was going to edit my old posts, but I decided just to make a new post. I appreciate all of your information. I hope you share your experiences with your persimmons. You guys have access to a lot of things we don’t, but I guess that goes both ways.

First, I do not have a 50/50 male Rosseyanka (despite my invoice saying so). I have 75% Virginiania 25% Kaki male, which is polygamous. It produces some fruit according to Cliff. This male is the one used in all/most? of the late David Lavergne’s breeding projects.

Second, he feels there is a lot of misinformation regarding Kaki decline and death. Basically, he feels it’s cold damage and so does Jerry Lehman. He told me he has seen Kaki grafted on lotus/Kaki over 400 years old. I don’t think my Kaki on lotus will live that long, they look like crap in my soil. He also told me he has Kaki on Virginiania over 25 years old. I lack the experience to fully disagree that it’s just cold damage. From what I’ve seen in zone 8B I think there is something going on that no one can pinpoint. I really wish I took a photo of the two persimmon trees side by side; one woke up last Spring and the other didn’t. He told me this could have been Spring freeze damage… maybe he is right. These late freezes may weaken the tree leaving it vulnerable to disease. I know nothing of your weather conditions across the pond, but I imagine you all have a lot more of a buffer than we do in the Eastern US.

The polar vortex is really doing a number on Cliff’s Kakis. Cold tolerance is critical for him.


#265

Hello,
We all have things that others don’t have. It’s not because I have it that it’s common here.

I also think there is a lot of misinformation as Cliff told you. It’s with this intention that I have reacted.
I am still looking for my way on the persimmon.
I did not want to do the gentleman I know everything that just landed. But yes there are persimmon grafted on d.virginiana who are 70 years old. We read everything and its contrain on the persimmon. That 's also why it’s interresting.
The reaction will be different depending on the climate, soil…

It’s with this intention that I said that hybrids may not be the solution and that I took this exemple.
But why use hybrid seedlings, which will give rise to growth, or on Rosseyanka. … Why not test grafting on JT 02 which is à 50/50?

In short, why would a persimmon who lives 30 years be a problem? It does not bother that an apple tree grafted on M9 lives only 25 years.

I hope I understand correctly


#266

It seems like the Shinsui and Korean Giant grafts I made aren’t growing. They both have several green leaves, but have not gotten any bigger after their initial growth. They don’t look sick or wilted, just not growing. In comparison, the Seckle graft is like a foot long at this point.
Does this mean those grafts have failed?
Is there anything I can do at this point to help them?


#267

I have not obtained scion wood for JT-02. I prefer more vigorous trees. The idea of having to stake a tree its entire life makes me uneasy. I love beautifully structured trees. I grow persimmons for the beauty of the tree as well as the fruit. In fact, I’ve convinced several non-fruit people to grow Rosseyanka after showing them photos of a tree with a load of fruit in the fall, an absolutely stunning tree. I may still grow JT-02 if I can taste the fruit. It would also be a good choice for a breeding project.

From what Cliff has told me Kassandra is another vigorous grower. I think Kassandra would better suit my needs than JT-02. I do have plans to cross my polygamous male to Rojo Brillianti and a few other Asian persimmons. Having an ortet or two of my own is a life goal.

30 years is a very long time, but these pictures of ancient persimmon trees really get me going.


#268

A photo to illustrate the discussion.
Here, Chinebuli and JT02

I am Lucky to have about 24 hybrids, about ten of which age not or little distributed on this side of tha Atlantic


#269

@BambooMan Grafts of Kassandra are so-so vigorous here. I did (3) to learn how they overwinter here in-ground & in a raised bed. But wow, tons of vigor.

Dax


#270

How is the growth structure on your Kassandras? It may be too early to tell. Rosseyanka has wide crotch angles unlike most of the Asian persimmons. I prefer the wider crotch angles seen in American persimmons with a well defined leader.

Edit: My Great Wall has extremely narrow crotch angles, which worries me since that is half the parentage of Kassandra.


#271

All of them are putting up really plump single leaders. Grafts were on probably 3/8ths seedlings. The plumpness is as thick/thicker than a pencil and two ft. tall on one leader and probably 20" on the other of this graft.

Another graft has (2) 20" shoots & another is just breaking now.

Dax

P.s. Mikkusu isn’t that far behind Kassandra. Has to be hybrid vigor, naturally.


#272

You have quite the collection of hybrids. Do you have any favorite hybrids, perhaps you tried some fruit from another grower’s trees? Nikita’s Gift seems to get high marks. Which hybrid that you own produces the largest fruit of good quality?


#273

At Lehman’s while there last Fall he had one he called “OP Nikita’s Gift” which he named this winter to ‘Dr. Kazas’. It is the only hybrid persimmon I’ve tasted. The origin of ‘Dr. Kazas’ is American x Kaki x unknown (but likely crossed again with American.) It was great but we got the tailings laying on the ground (some were in perfect condition) but all were loaded with fruit fly maggots about 1/4" to less than 1/2" long. We ate them anyway.

The fella my Kassandra wood came from said it is his favorite persimmon in his orchard. His wife prefers ‘John Rick’. I’ve never tasted ‘John Rick’. It’s doubtful says my friend that John Rick will have a long enough season here to ripen says my friend. I grafted it however before knowing that.

Visiting Lehman’s allowed me to taste a lot of persimmons but ‘Nikitas’s Gift’, ‘Rosseyanka’, and any other hybrids were already finished for the year. Although small, ‘Morris Burton’ & ‘Deer Candy’ are superb to excellent as is H-63A which is a Claypool; and Jerry’s “100-series” are all very-very good" as well as large. 100-46 (‘Lehman’s Delight’) was my favorite and 100-42 was a tie really. Both 100-46 and 100-42 are good for farmers market growers but Jerry said his other 100-series (100-43, 100-44, and 100-45) get to soft too quickly.

Dax


#274

I thought my pawpaw grafts failed, but it turns out they’re just really really slow!

This means my project to preserve the Granny Skaggs variety is back on track!

pawpaw graft

(What counts as a bud on pawpaw? They have all these weird indentations in the wood, and I’m not sure if those are live or not.)


#275

Those weird indentations on the stem are nodes.
That is where the buds are.
Even if you cannot see a bud there, there are latent buds there, and they can be forced into growth
Maybe pinch back the growing shoots on the other branches to direct more growth into your graft


#276

When I first started grafting pawpaw I had a difficult time finding “good” buds. I’ve seen latent buds pop out from under a flower bud too. This is a relief because some of the scions had a flower bud at every node.


#277

How big were the Dr. Kazas? I love drying persimmons. The bigger persimmons make a lot less work since I peel them first. Although, I’ve never dried a pure American cultivar.

I tried obtaining some of the 100 series from Cliff, but I was only able to get Lehman’s Delight. 100-42 sounds like another good one. Have you tried A-118 and H-118? I have a few new grafts of each.


#278

I gave up too early on my pawpaw grafts this year. Got impatient. Not blessed with patience, I need to work on this.


#279

Dr. Kazas prior known simply as “OP Nikita’s Gift”


It’s the same size as the 100-series.

I haven’t tried either A-118 or H-118. I do have H-118 grafted from last year and saw another in my raised bed this morning breaking bud. Fortunately H-118/‘Early Jewel’ is grafted on multiple trees with pretty large caliper so it will be soon to tasting time.

Here’s a link to the thread of visiting Lehman along with my notes and more photos. You don’t need to read very far in to get the information you would be seeking:

My post above I stated ‘100-46’ was my favorite. I didn’t clarify that it was my favorite of the 100’s series. ‘H-63A’ was my favorite of the day. Jerry made sure we understood that maybe that year H-63A was the favorite but maybe the next year another will be the favorite. But H-63A that day was outstanding. The color of the fruit is red and orange which is another draw to it.

‘Dr. Kazas’ is the first persimmon we ate that day. So a belly full later of a dozen cultivars plus pawpaws had the senses all across the chart so to speak. But we ate H-63A after Dr. Kazas and all the 100-series and wow it was the clear winner to (3) of we attending.

Dax


#280

I remember that Paul had made an intervention on this subject. I will not invent anything more.

To my knoledge, the hybrids that melt the biggest fruit are the gora roman kosh, gora roger, gora goverla. But they are less resistant to cold than other hybrids (-24°C or -11,2°F)
As for taste, it’s very good question.
Fan no one age able to answer. The names of these Ukrainian hybrids were only revealed in 2011. The nurseries that have multiplied them often have not had fruit yet.
It’s a good to know their names and have them.
I hope to have some fruits of gora roman kosh in 2019. Announced for 250 g. Not see flower this year.

But varieties like sosnovskaja or CUCUPAKA are declared as more pruner and above all much more resistant to the cold. Tested resistant to -30°C or -22°F .
We can find contradictory information.
Some say that they are F3 and other F4.
Some also say they would je non-astreingent. But vert good taste.
But I don’t know.

My little collection is young. Patience.