Hi all, well, I did it, I bought a Mars grape vine. She’s already quite tall so as soon as I get her in the ground I’ll have to be pretty confident with my trellis choice/size. So of course I’m worried I’ll do it wrong.
I know in Ohio there’s a few methods recommended, and overall there are TONS of options, so I’m swimming in possibility.
Here’s what I stole directly from my extension office: “Vines are trained to a particular system by pruning and tying the canes to the support system. In some methods of training grapevines, the canes are tied to wires above the trunk and arms of the vines. Such training works well where grapevines are to be grown on a fence or in an upright position. In another method of training, the canes are tied to the wires and the fruit bearing shoots are allowed to droop or hang down. A third method is the cordon type training system. Here the fruiting canes are developed from a horizontal extension of the trunk called a cordon. If canes are pruned long, they can be tied to the lower wires. If pruned short, they hang free. One of the most common training systems is called the single curtain/cordon bilateral system.”
Are there names for the methods listed above? Is one better than another? My goals and priorities are: 1: Allow grapes to be harvest-able by kids (so low without being too low) and 2: Use the trellis/vine as a makeshift fence between our corner lot yard and the sidewalk.
It’s best to let the roots establish for the first year before training, so the height of the plant right now is irrelevant unless you have a particularly nice, straight shoot to use as the trunk already. If it hasn’t leafed out too much, I would trim most of the roots by a few inches when you plant so you don’t have girdling issues later on and cut back the top to the two or three lowest buds.
For labrusca varieties like Mars that tend to droop, the usual recommendation I’ve seen is to have one or a few high wires from which the fruit producing shoots hang downwards. No reason why you can’t have the wires lower to the ground, except the ends of the shoots will trail all over the soil and wildlife will be able to reach the fruit much more easily. Grapes also don’t make much of a visual fence in the winter since you prune out 90% of what grew the previous year.
The Geneva Double Curtain configuration worked in my experience. In my situation of having just a few vines in keeping them off of the ground and in being able to mow underneath. Perhaps not intended for large numbers of vines or mechanical harvesting.
@GrapeNut The first problem is I don’t have one main shoot; it’s divided itself very low into two, and I haven’t picked a main shoot from that yet.
Trim the roots? Did I misunderstand something here?
Yeah, I have to walk the line with this because I’m hoping my kids could pick grapes themselves someday, but I also don’t want to sacrifice the grapes to raccoons…
Thankfully I’m not worried about winter, just summer times when the kids are more likely to be running around near the street!
@tennessean I’ll look that configuration up, I’ll take anything at this point!
Nope, for commercial vineyards we typically shorten the roots by 80% or more when we plant bareroot grapes. Usually means the vines need the first year to reestablish root systems, but the lower risk of girdling from J-roots (roots that are too long for the planting hole and end up bent upwards after planting) is worth it. J-rooted vines usually remain stunted and often die after 5-10 years.
If your vine is already leafed out and growing, assuming you haven’t planted it already, I would just trim whatever roots are circling the pot and not worry about the rest.
Find a basic trellis design that you like and then use your imagination. You don’t necessarily have to use any trellis design as someone else may use it. Just determine what is important to you. Having the vines at the right height for pruning and the picking of the grapes helps. No crawling on the ground picking grapes hopefully. I tend to dislike any design that makes it difficult to control the weeds. No wires close to the ground.
Basically the Geneva Double Curtain system involves 3 wires being parallel and on the same general level. Allows some of the shoots to lay across the wires. Helps in reducing thickness and keeping at least some of the end of shoots off of the ground. The middle wire is the “catch” wire. Look at plenty of examples and you will get some ideas. Of course this system uses more wire then the basic Kniffin system but that should be less of a concern if you have a small number of vines. Can be two cordons as is on the Kniffin but sometimes I have more on the muscadines. I use spur pruning.
@GrapeNut That’s fantastic to know! I figured it would be fine since it was potted but I’ll definitely make sure it’s loosened up before planting. I need to hurry up and plant it…which means I need to hurry up and get a trellis…
@tennessean Thank you for your input, it’s relieving to realize that while there are tons of options, they all work (reasonably at least) so as long as it works for me, it’s good. I’ll be googling the Geneva Double Curtain and the Kniffin system next! I also don’t know what kind of pruning works best for the Mars variety - GrapeNut previously mentioned that Mars droops a lot so I don’t know if that makes a difference in how to prune it? Thank you for your encouragement, I will never stop having questions, heh!
Alright, this article suggests that Mars could use any of the four described methods, but I’d likely use either the Munson system or the Kniffin four-armed Umbrella out of the listed options.
This article is also nice for helping sort through what factors may lean towards or away from one method or another, so that’s useful if not as crystal clear as I wish (e.g. listing out and describing the ensuing methods).
This is an interesting mishmash of different trellis and training ideas!
This so far I think has been the most comprehensive of all the articles I’ve seen, but it is a lot of words over simplified summaries, so there’s that.
Anyway, I think overall the GDC looks the best, but I’m unsure of my abilities as a beginner to handle it, and if it would fit in the space I want it to. Is it possible to transform a kniffen into a GDC after some practice?
That is certainly possible. I have moved cordons to different wires before.
I have read that In northern latitudes sometimes the practice is to bend the cordons off of the wires and place them under straw to protect the vine from extreme cold and therefore winter kill. Of course it does not get anywhere near that cold at my location (and probably yours) but that shows that vines can be rerouted.
Starting off the single wire system at about 5 feet would be fine. Train the cordons in both directions. Spur pruning would probably be the simplest. I would wager that most varieties can be either spur or cane pruned without much difference in production.
I forget if I read as to how many vines your going to have.
While @Grapenut is more qualified to answer this question I would say that it would be okay to dig up a small number of vines for inspection if you remember a problem and just planted yesterday. The cloudy weather that we are having in West Tennessee helps. Have to guard against cutworms though.
Just this morning I dug up a tomato plant that I had set out yesterday to replant. No problem.
If they’re completely dormant, you won’t hurt them by digging them up and replanting. As to whether or not it’s necessary, if the roots were very long, I would say yes, J rooting is more likely to happen. For me, as a commercial grower, replacing a failed vine in an established vineyard is very difficult and that spot is likely to remain unproductive forever, so I need to take extra care in making sure things are planted correctly. In a home garden, you will likely be able to give a replacement vine the TLC it needs to compete successfully with its neighbors.