Learn something new every day!
I’ve always thought that rose colored wine was made from a blend of red grapes and white grapes, but I am guessing now that is not exactly true either.
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I’m sure a rose colored wine can be made that way by mixing, but all you need to do is let the skins stay in contact with the must for a short period of time and remove at the color you want. The pigment in the skins color the juice. Of course you are also adding some tannins as you do so.
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Everyone knows Chardonnay and Cab Sauv. I only knew about Sylvaner because it was mentioned along with several other grapes when I was recently in Germany doing some wine tasting!
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Great… Now I’m thinking of Geneva Double Curtain trellis
I wonder how many times I’ll go back and forth before spring.
I just talked about reducing vigor for VSP when I should have looked at GDC instead. It would be a much messier look while growing as the shoots would naturally trail down. I’d have to give it a mop cut from time to time.
If I didn’t already mention, one issue I have with all the vacillation about sun exposure is the vines will be running east-west instead of north-south.
That doubles the possible sun exposure on the grapes, thus the reason I’m thinking about it. All the stuff I’m reading online assumes north-south rows.
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Vertical Shoot Positioning is like Beaker on the Muppets
Geneva Double Curtain is like Brandon Fraser in Encino Man
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Why not build a 24’x12’x10’ arbor and then let the vines grow to whatever direction that they damn well please?
You have just ordered 7 vines which is the exact number of vines that I had growing on my arbor. 6 growing up each post and then one growing in the middle.
Maybe I am being a little facetious. 
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Very nice work!
I’d rather grow some more land and add it onto my lot…
I do have that option as I already have a 9’ x 16’ unfinished deck with 6 - 6"x6" posts. Unfortunately I only have soil along one side and I’m already planning 2 espalier pears there.
Good idea though.
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I find arbors/pergolas a pain to spray, and you will definitely need to spray for powdery and downy mildew since the Walker varieties don’t have resistance to those.
Strict VSP with a heavily leafed fruiting zone thing is rapidly falling out of favor. Most wineries here in California have realized that this system exposes the fruit to way too much sun and heat.
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Making the vines run east-west would make that worse wouldn’t it, sun exposure wise.
Geneva Double Curtain or single cordon perhaps.
Since I am not setting up my vines in a traditional fashion I’m thinking of some alternatives.
One thing an east-west oriented row would allow is to set up an adjustable shade cloth to control sun exposure. It would be set up on the south side of the cordon.
It could even be spaced panels that allow the moving sun during the day ( I know, the sun doesn’t move as much as we spin beneath it 
) to alternate the grape bunch from sun to shade and back.
I’ll draw something up on those longer and cooler nights this winter and post.
I can create something like this because it’s only 7 vines we are talking about.
I’m still thinking I’d like the VSP as it requires less hardware to build collared to the Geneva Double Curtain.
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I have to agree with you somewhat on this, although the area of my arbor was more wire than wood. The problem I had was the bunch grapes would sometimes lay against the wood boards preventing the spray from covering. Then the insects would get to the fruit from the wood side. Otherwise, it was easy enough to spray. Of course, a lot depends on the design of the arbor. The highly architectural pergolas would be a nightmare to spray.
Now that I have converted to muscadines very limited spraying is needed.
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We use shade cloth on the west side of our N-S rows over the fruiting zone and move it up and down depending on the weather. A row orientation that is 50-70 degrees E from N is optimal for balancing out sun exposure.
In our climate, the fruit only needs protection when its over 95 degrees, provided it’s acclimated to sun exposure. Any leaf removal you want to do should be done before the berries reach pea size. At that stage, they are much more tolerant and adaptable to increased sun exposure than later on.
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Thanks.
I’ve bookmarked this thread for reference when I get to production time.
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When production time is here the hope is that you don’t have 5,000 birds eating your grapes. 
https://www.winespectator.com/articles/whats-the-story-with-birds-and-wine-grapes-5200
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Hi Phil.
I have read several times that you are interested in making a “decent” wine, at an amateur level.
It is not very complicated in my climatic conditions (until a few years ago my town Villarrobledo was the town in the world with the largest area of planted vineyards (currently it is my neighboring town Tomelloso), so if I know anything, it is viticulture.
Furthermore, my cousin Juan Javier Giron is the winemaker at Cristo de la Vega wineries, one of the largest wineries in Europe.
The other day talking to him (he comes every day to eat at my restaurant) I told him that a friend from Louisiana intends to make wine and if he could give me somes advices for you, and he told me that he would be delighted.
So you have one of the best winemakers in the world at your disposal.
This is my cousin Juan Javier
I have little time available and quite a few threads open, so I can’t focus all my attention on this thread.
But yes give you some initial advice.
You have put this photo , of this pruning conduction system as ideal for you:
Logically you have seen the photograph on the internet, with the bunches very aerated, to avoid fungal problems and you have believed that it was an ideal system.
I’m sorry to tell you “NO”.
This conduction system is called double Royat cordon, and they have two arms , wit 4 loader shoots on each side with long pruning and vertical arrangement.
This system has 3 drawbacks:
- It is not very productive
- It is very laborious in winter pruning
- You need an army of gardeners during the vegetative period to eliminate the grandchildren (green pruning).
If you don’t know what grandchildren are, tell me and I’ll explain it to you.
Your suitable driving pruning system is the double Guyot system, which has these advantages:
- Very high productivity, much higher productivity than cordon Royat
- Very easy (tremendously easy and fast), to prune in winter
- Tremendously easy to eliminate grandchildren in a vegetative state, since there are only two fruiting shoots, instead of eight
Regards
Jose
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Ouch…
Thanks @Jose-Albacete
Double Guyot is the training form I was looking at. The stock photo must have been mislabeled or isn’t clear.
The nursery that sold the vines indicated that spur training is preferred, but the Guyot system is cane pruned (renewal canes each year). I am more familiar with simple spur training as it’s less work, but for only 7 vines it’s no big deal to learn cane pruning. There are plenty of articles describing it online.
One of my unknowns are spacing of vines as I am not sure the optimum number of fruiting spurs for this variety once in full production.
I chose 7 vines as it was my estimate for the minimum number to make it work with a 5 gallon carboy volume as this is the standard in the US for wine making kits, so the ingredients and procedures are easy to find.
You can tell your cousin these are the characteristics of the variety.
"Errante noir is a red winegrape most similar to a cabernet sauvignon and has great blending potential. Tasting comments: dark-red purple color; complex fruit with herbs and earth, plum, big wine, dense, rich middle, tannic yet balanced.
The variety parentage is:
50% Sylvaner
12.5% Cabernet sauvignon
12.5% Carignane
12.5% Chardonnay
Taxonomy:
97% Vitis Viniferi
1.5% Vitiis Arizonica
1.5% Vitis Rupestris
How wonderful to have a friend in the wine business. I think living in western Europe with all of its history in winer making iss wonderful. Except for one local vineyard, I have to travel a few thousand miles to get to true US wine country. I did spend some time in South Africa in the wine regions around Cape Town (Franschhoek) years ago.
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Hello Phil, you will be able to see photographs of Guyot pruning soon, since in my region whas changed years ago from the Cordon Royat driving system with 4 three-bud thumbs on the right and left arm, to the double Guyot system, because it is much more easy to carry out winter pruning, and it does not require very advanced knowledge as in the Royat cordon, in which if the pruner does not have advanced knowledge, it will destroy your harvest.
For table grapes (especially seedless varieties) it requires ultra-long pruning, with 16-18 buds .
For winemaking varieties, pruning is somewhat shorter, about 8-10 buds.
The best quality bunches will be produced from the second or third bud in onwards.
I have seen that you have bought the vines grafted on 1103 Paulsen, it is a good rootstock, but 140 Ruggeri is better.
You should have waited, and grafted the new winemaking varieties developed in Europe resistant to powdery mildew and powdery mildew, as these:
- Fleurtai
- Soreli
- Sauvignon Cretos
- Sauvignon Nepis
- Sauvignon Rytos
- Cabernet Curtis
- Cabernet Carbon
- Cabernet Eidos
- Cabernet Volos
- Merlot Khorus
- Merlot Kanthus
- Pinotín
- Cabertin
Juan Javier, who is my cousin, is the winemaker at Cristo de la Vega wineries, but the owners of the large wineries in my town studied with me in high school and I have an enormous friendship with all of them.
Regards
Jose
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Please don’t underestimate the devastation of the grape crops in the southeastern U.S. by Pierce’s Disease.
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As @tennessean mentions @Jose-Albacete, I can’t grow anything not resistant to Pierce’s Disease.
It’s the single reason quality wine growing regions in the US are restricted to lower humidity and more temperate regions.
The grape I chose had a dominant gene from Vitis Arizontica that is the Pierce’s Disease resistance.
All more traditional wine grape varieties world wide would not survive here as Pierce’s Disease will kill 100% of the vines.
So leaving they behind, this is the variety I chose. The rootstock was the only choice I had.
I’m giving it a go…
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Fuck !!!
You have Xylella Fastidiosa present in your state.
That is tremendously dangerous.
In Spain, fortunately we have limited the disease and it is only present in the Balearic Islands and a small population in the province of Alicante.
In southern Italy it has caused greates damages to olive groves.
Until now, the two varieties that have been shown to be most resistant to Xylella are Chardonay and Mantonegro.
I know that there are several North American Universities studying and developing resistant varieties, but I don’t know how advanced the studies are.
Damn, Phil, you have everything against you.
Regards
Jose
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