Planting some bud10 apple cordons in a couple weeks. Currently in this area we have peaches that seem to be growing alright. They are seedling trees. The part where the apple will go are pictured below. The soil is basically (I think) composted manure and hay about 6 inches deep on top of some compacted clay. I’ve used a subsoiler down to 24", it may have closed back up so I’ll do it once more once it dries out a little. Is this type of planting ground asking for root rot in a dwarf rootstock like bud10? It holds water for a long time, loaded with worms, it looks like a compost pile.
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If you can grow peaches, apples won’t have a problem.
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Looks OK to me. We got terrible clay soil here.
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Sounds good. I’ve had bad luck with root rot in the past, but that was above ground in fabric pots. The grafts would grow good, put on 6" of growth, even more, then die. I attributed it to soil being too high in organic matter. Mix was 1:1:1 clay topsoil, peat moss, perlite. I’m really hoping to have good success this year. This is the first time we will have planted benchgrafts straight into the soil, and I chose the richest stuff on the property to do it to up chances of early fruit. This area was a feed lot I think because the rest of our soil looks like this.
Further out picture of the south orchard with the peach trees. The fence is goin in now.
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if you’re worried about drainage, plant in mounds. eventually they will flatten themselves as the tree ages. only way i can get trees established and survive in ground here. i have rocky clay.
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Good idea. So far Apples have done well if they don’t get eaten on (M111 rootstock, but of course m111 is known to do well in clay). I was thinking about diverting a little bit of the water. But it seems to dry out in a day or so, so maybe it’ll alright. I’ve actually seen that if I dig an area it tends to make the matter worse because water just collects in the disturbed area instead of running off. Also there’s nothing growing there in the area pictured, so that makes it worse. In the area 30 feet to the east (up the hill) it is perfect soil because there’s weeds and grass there I think. I’m gonna plant some wildflowers and weeds to soak up the water and break up the subsoil.
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mix in some coarse perlite in your planting soil as well. helps it drain better/ more air to the roots.
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dandelions are great for breaking up hard soils as is alfalfa.
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How bout gravel. I can get lots of that. But to amend 300sqft a reasonable and effective amount with perlite might cost a bit much
it doesnt have the air pockets in it like perlite does. you can get a big bag for $25 at most nurseries. you don’t need alot of it to make a difference esp. if you’re planting on mounds anyway.
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I’ll look into it. I’m about done using any kind of disturbance to “improve our soil”. Where I used the subsoiler just turned into a drainage ditch. Collected water on the downhill side until I dug out a small trench to drain it. And it flowed out like a gutter. The area 15 feet uphill drains beautifully, it could rain 3" and an hour later there’s no standing water, because there’s weeds growing. So I’m just gonna keep the trees away from the bottom most part for now. Looks like AM Leonard sells super coarse perlite, 4cuft for $33. Not that bad. This is an interesting topic though. I was reading an old thread about the “perfect soil”. I think @fruitnut was talking about how apples and other fruits (I’ve heard as much about grapes as well) grow better quality fruit in soil that drains and isn’t necessarily high organic matter. Makes me wonder if mixing in huge amounts of gravel/perlite and reducing the organic content would benefit the plant. I have no idea what the organic matter percent in this soil is, but it has to be very high. Here’s another area where you can see the old hay. Peaches are happily putting on wood nearby. But not many blossoms yet
I’m sure it will do very well after I establish an understory (hemlock, pigweed, cocklebur, bluegrass, vetch, and some giant fragrant plant with huge seedfilled spike pods are the weeds growing like mad here), but it was formerly a service route for moving building materials and it doesn’t drain well. I have lime sand, and 1/4 crushed limestone on hand right now and I’m not really wanting to wait to plant beyond Monday. Do you think it would be worth it to add it to the dirt? Or should I bite the bullet and buy what would amount to a cubic yard of perlite for $200?
The ground sounds hollow, like I remember the humus in the smoky mountains sounding last time I was there.
Nevermind, shipping the perlite doubles the price. $500. Not willing to spend that right now. I get 10x the amount of gravel for 2/3 the price. There’s a quarry 20 minutes away
When I was in Future Farmers of America (FFA) in junior high school, we tried soil judging. That required a week or so of classroom preparation and was organized as a competition among several schools against professionals with credentials from Land Grant colleges. We were hauled from site to site where the soil profile had been opened with a backhoe. There’s more to optimizing cropping by soil type than meets the eye.
In Kentucky, your Land Grant colleges are UK and KSU. There should be County Extension Agents in your area who have their own credentials, are in charge of inventories of how-to literature, and can call upon resources from the colleges. Their focus is agriculture, but they have a mission to home owners (making up the bulk of taxpayers) as well. Here is my sermon: You should plan to visit the office to present your questions in person, and you ought to take their advice seriously.
At first I thought you were holding the camera at an angle. Considering the area around Falmouth, I now believe you were having trouble finding the horizon — probably because there isn’t any. The slope of the land will have a distinct bearing on land use.
Land on a slope is usually better for orchards than flat land because it avoids frost hollows. I have a hard time imagining that real drainage will be much of a problem although soil far from open water will paradoxically appear to dry more slowly because it takes longer for moisture to percolate away from it. Your experience may vary, of course, and experience trumps all.
You seem concerned about drainage and land use. No doubt, you’ve already indulged in soil samples in the past, but you may wish to send in a few from the feed lot, too. Get some professional recommendations on what do with the area. Get a site visit, if possible, or at least rely on recommendations from someone familiar with the area.
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Thank you for the detailed response. We have yet to take/test a soil sample. Time constraints/distraction with home building have prevented it. Our land is essentially the top of one of the fingers or ridges so commonly found in the bluegrass region. House is on the flatland on top and everything else is radiating outward. I’m less concerned with optimizing our land for production than I am simply concerned about the roots rotting the first year. I’m confident than when they establish themselves (and we stop pulverizing the area with the tractor moving materials) it will drain again, simply because it’s on a slope. It rained heavily the last couple days, this morning it was soggy but no standing water. Our dirt seems to get very soggy, then over the course of a dry couple days it dries out. I just worry about the standing water that appears. I also overthink.
The UK Pendleton county extension office is actually about 15 minutes from us. I need to make a trip and talk to them.
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The UK Extension Office system, at least around here, is a great resource. Lots of helpful bulletins on the website too, in case you haven’t seen those yet.
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I’ve read their report on apple rootstocks and blueberries and have decided on our rootstock accordingly. I’ll scour the site.
Looks like the extension office does 20 free soil samples each year per resident. Looks like all that’s keeping me from doin it right is laziness. Yea the picture above isn’t deceiving. Our land is really that hilly. The posts are set perpendicular to the grade because it’s high tensile fencing. From what I’ve read we accidentally made a good choice on planting site. It’s almost all grass,a but under the grass we have moss growing. I think that’s good, it’s like the forest ecology right? Idk I’ll get some samples done and post about it in case others are in a similar boat. Either way we will be planting this Monday. We’ll mound it up a bit, maybe work in 2" of 1/4minus gravel, and pray for seasonable weather and abundance of the fruits of the earth.
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If it didn’t drain before, it sure does now.
The topsoil drains very well it seems. It’s on top of hardpan though. When I dug down to the hardpan the water quite literally ran out into the trench and flowed freely down the hill. Im not sure about how to break up the pan or if I even need to.
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Dandelions and alfalfa supposedly break it up along with most other long taproot weeds. Or just take a plow and dig down deep.