The Winesap is a very curious apple, perhaps best described as a female apple. Some have called it a triploid, but DNA tests say otherwise. Its pollen is sterile. Curious note on the WSU reference panel.
Has several triploid offspring (e.g., Stayman Winesap, Turley, Black Twig) that inherited the entire genome of Winesap (plus half that of their specific fathers)
My 17 year old M111 Winesap at the old home fam property.
Winesap was one of the few Winter apples recommended for South Georgia/North Florida regions. Along with Shockley, Yates, Baldwin, Ben Davis, Gilpin/Carthouse/Romanite, Blacktwig and Limbertwigs.
A lot of people in my area say they like Winesap apples but what theyâre talking about is Stayman. Or âStayman Winesapâ (Staymanâs Winesap) as itâs often called. I try to convince them to refer to itâs name correctly but itâs a losing battle 
Iâve tried a few different varieties of Winesap and some have been decent.. Honestly though Iâve never tried one near as good as Stayman. Not sure Iâve ever tried the original âWinesapâ which is presumably what you have there? Iâd love to try it outâŚ
Doesnât seem like itâs pollen is sterile FYI:
Presumably itâs the âmotherâ of Black Twig and the âfatherâ of Blushing Golden.
From the readme on that spreadsheet:
Wendell, I received Winesap from Snowflake and he told me when we arranged a trade it was âOld Timey Winesapâ. Theyâre just a couple years old on B.9, but have grown well. I think one even has a fruit on it. If you donât find scion and would like some, remind me late winter/early spring and Iâll set some aside for you when I do my winter pruning. I could even send you bud wood in August if youâd like.
Stayman Winesap is larger, softer and not nearly as tart as Winesap. Have not tried âOld timey Winesapâ; but would like to see the differences.
The Winesap I grow is definitely not an OF, likely not VA, or Stayman. I purchased it from Willis in GA. Itâs one of my favorite apples and is a great fresh eater. The flavor is almost too intense for baking, and I kinda prefer the Stayman because itâs not nearly as potent cooked or baked. The aroma of the Winesap is far superior to the Stayman and makes the house smell like an apple cellar.
The Stayman I grow ripens between 9/1-9/15.
Winesap is 9/10-9/25. Clearly not a Winter apple.
Ark Black ripens 9/25-10/15 with about 10 percent being long term hangers.
It took 9-10 years for my M111 tree to kick out a good crop, but itâs been a solid producer since.
For years Starks insisted the Winesap and Ark Black were triploid since they were known to have sterile pollen. Jason Bowen stated they were not triploid and I thought that was a very provocative statement. We argued over it. I have a Stayman, Winesap, Summer Banana on a tract and I can assure you the Winesap has sterile pollen. The neighbor has a potential pollenizer 1/4 mile away, and the Summer Banana only produces about 5-10 apples due to the lack of pollination. True triploids I donât believe produce viable seeds.
Vernon says the OF doesnât crack but lacks the intense aroma. Obviously ripens later.
That sounds like the Winesap my buddy grows. It has some definite briskness. And is not as pretty as those Staymans. Makes great pies though.
Ripening time I assume can be relative to the zone and probably numerous other factors.. Having said that though Stayman starts ripening (dropping on itâs own) here middle of September, and goes through the first few days of October. They store well, we ate the last one in late April.
Horne Creek apparently got caught up in the âsupposedâ [but wrong] name of a few apple cultivars. Donât discount the same possibility here.. Until and unless MyFruitTree sequences the DNA of what you know as Winesap, we canât be certain itâs the same as what they have on their spreadsheet with that name.
If the AI I asked is correct sports can even change âploidyâ. If true they could sequence the DNA of two trees, see both as âWinesapâ, with one being diploid and the other triploid. InterestingâŚ
I recently asked this question to fella who works in the University of Kentucky apple orchard research facility. He forwarded the question to a geneticist.
Answer > While not impossible, there is near zero possibility a triploid tree can produce a diploid sport.
Triploid trees have near zero chance of producing viable seeds. The Winesap has produced numerous offspring despite the fact the pollen is sterile. That is precisely the reason why Jason Bowen was correct when he stated both the Ark Black and Winesap are not true triploids. Both have produced offspring. The Black Twig, Stayman, and so many other triploids have not. AI is confused because the sources are confused.
AI:
While a tree can easily mutate to increase its chromosome count (like a diploid doubling into a tetraploid sport), it is functionally nearly impossible for a triploid (3x) somatic cell to spontaneously organize and reduce itself to a clean diploid (2x) state to form a viable bud sport.
Which matches what I was attempting (poorly) to say..
MyFruitTree DNA analysis indicates:
| Preferred name | Common Synonyms | Parent 1 | Parent 2 | Triploidy |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Winesap |
Since they have nothing in the Triploidy column that would seem to indicate itâs diploid. BUT.. You have a tree you feel is Triploid. So perhaps yours is a sport with an increased chromosome count. My wording âchange ploidyâ was certainly not specific enough as to how it can change.
Perhaps you stated that exactly backwards? Iâve planted numerous seeds from my Stayman trees and they sprouted and grew. Instead of an inability to be a âmotherâ to offspring, a triploid tree canât be a âfatherâ. Itâs pollen is sterile, so it canât pollenize a nearby diploid tree.
FWIW MyFruitTree also appears to indicate that Arkansas Black is not a triploid.
Thatâs different. I will not assert your Stayman(s) are not the real deal. There just seems to be much fluidity in apple genetics the scientists and experts cannot keep up with it.
GeminiâŚ
No, triploid apple trees generally cannot produce viable seeds. [1]
Why Seeds Are Not Viable
Rare Exceptions
I donât feel a tree is triploid just because it has sterile pollen. The Winesap is an outlier tree.
Yes, the Ark Black is purportedly the parent of the Buff apple.
Triploids are interesting. Though Tetraploids are really cool from a breeding standpoint.
Per Gemini 3.1 Pro:
Yes, a triploid apple tree can produce viable seeds when pollinated by a diploid tree, but the success rate is incredibly low, and the resulting seedlings are almost always genetically unbalanced and physically weak.
It had a lot more depth than that but for this discussion the summary is probably sufficient.
Iâve been exclusively grafting apple trees interstem since 2020. Most have M111 as the anchor roots but a few years ago I decided to try seedlings. Since Stayman is what our spare fridge was full of and what we tend to eat over the winter.. I saved seeds and tried planting them for a few years. I can definitely agree with the AIâs statement above. I did have many seeds germinate but it was FAR less than the quantity I put in the soil. Theyâve all also tended to be weak, taking a very long time to size up to the point of being able to graft onto them.
Last winter my wife bought some Golden Delicious from the grocery store and I saved those seeds. Near 100% germination this spring, and theyâve already grown larger than Stayman seedlings from last year.
Thought you might like to know I have 3 Limbertwig seedlings growing from the seeds you sent. Fingers crossed!
The Brushy Mt. Limbertwigs came from this orchard. A list of possible pollination partners.
Deal Orchards | Apple House in Alexander County - Hwy 16 - Taylorsville NC
The Limbertwig aka OFLT came from this orchard Parkers. The guy in the red flannel shirt wi/glasses is the apple growing legend.
Summer Banana is one of Vernonâs favorites, I doubt that he got the ripening time wrong. Maybe the answer is that it ripens at different times in different locations. Here in Northern Florida it is totally green at this time, mid July
The underlying issue I believe may be the lack of updating. Although Vernon is not a bad as some of the other apple curator-seller types, they lift tooamy quotes and descriptions from Calhoun or folks who wrote descriptions during the Maunder Minimum. The 1970s are gone and they ainât coming back.
Iâve been managing Summer Banana trees on their own roots for my wife and MIL since 1995. The Summer B was my MILâs favorite tree and started growing them in the late 70s. I donât remember the exact dates from the 90, but the last time I was paying attention the apples were near gone by 8/5.
A youngish SB on its own roots.
They can grow up to 26-30â tall.
That is interesting. Jim Kell/Fortâs Prize tends to medium/large size. Milam is small/medium. Jim Kell keeps a tad longer then Milam. Seedling effect???
What Winesap do you think your buddy grows?
