Maybe ‘816’ was pollinated by some wild tree which grows near ? Honestly I get it this year so I will compare it with EG. In my point of view it’s fruits don’t look a like ‘Meader’ (which are quite flat) Hebanowiec (Diospyros) - odmiany owocowe - szkółka Carya - ‘816’ looks more globular. My friend plan to make a DNA analyse of various cultivars so maybe he could check it to be 100% sure.
For ‘Keener’ I read this on forum that’s the reason I described it as a probably rootstock (if the orchard ownes truly get a persimmon from Burbank it was likly grafted on a wild seedling, after some time the kaki part died). But if I saw the pictures right it hangs quite good on the tree ? So maybe this trait can be transfered.
As NC-21 and NC-10 I mean same parentage. Campbell planted open pollinated seedlings from EG, MB, Woolbright, some other cultivars which I don’t remember now but all the seeds come from same source where the owner kept wild males and EGxwild males as pollinations. Row numeration of both of this also suggests at least half-siblings.
If my memory is correct scion source for red leaf ‘Wabash’ was Claypool as he described it in some article as very ornamental.
It’s sad to read that even the newer selections have been lost.
Shepard Rd and Redland Rd persimmons were both roadside fenceline trees. Shepard Rd tree succumbed to borers, as best I can tell.
Last time I was visiting my sister, in Elmore Co., AL, I looked for the Redland Rd. tree, but there’d been some fenceline clearing done, and I couldn’t spot it for certain. Probably would help if I was able to visit at the proper time to notice fall leaf color - as was the case the first time I noticed it.
Keener… holds maybe a little longer on the tree than most of my other D.v.s, but fruits do drop on their own. Has maybe a little more ‘fiber’ in its pulp than most other D.v.s.
816… there was a ‘male’ persimmon across the driveway from the fruiting tree, probably 50 ft away. But… I’ve seen an occasional fruit up in the top of that otherwise mostly unfruitful male tree, so who knows? I’ve not looked at 816 with an eye toward trying to determine if it’s a 60 or 90-chromosome tree… natives/wild persimmons in this area ‘should’ all be 60-chromosome race.
IIRC, Wabash and Woolbright were initially selected, mainly for their fall leaf color… Wabash- red/purple, Woolbright - clear yellow.
@Lech … Rich Tooie is a wild southern Tennessee persimmon. Most likely a 60C persimmon. Not grafted… a wild seedling.
It was growing in a cow pasture for many years that got turned into a subdivision about 40 years ago.
My sister Trudy (grandkids call her Tooie) bought a home there 30+ years ago and she told me the persimmon trees in her side yard were about the same size then as they are now.
They were quite mature trees 30+ years ago.
That means they survived our 1985 low of -17F.
It produces loads of 1.5-2 inch fruit that taste way different than the Early Golden varieties.
I tasted 100-46 and H118 at Englands orchard and they were both delicious… but tasted very similar… we tried several other varieties and they all tasted similar to us. It was a very clean, citrus orange apricot type flavor.
The base flavor of Rich Tooie is quite different than anything we tried at Englands Orchard… very rich tasting, complex fruity.
Just a little more background on Rich Tooie for you.
TNHunter
@Lucky_P thanks a lot.
‘816’ have to big fruit for a 60n if the nursery which I mentioned above realy describe the right cultivars (they likly have scions from Cliff). After you wrote about possibility that’s just EG after thinking about it, it seems likely to me based on the appearance of the fruit. Don’t you remember if the tree had any signs of grafting or a similar taste? Theoretically, it could have been an EG seedling, even self-pollinated…
PS. That’s true that Wabash and Woolbright were recommended as ornamentals but I couldn’t find them in any nursery (last trace for Woolbright was from Nolin River Nursery in early 2000’s…). Could you tell me more about IIRC ? I have never heard of it.
@TNHunter thanks for help.
Analyzing the general description and photos you added in other threads, I do not think that this plant is 60n. The fruit is 90n in size, the tree itself seems relatively small and frost-resistant. I’m wondering about the difference in taste you’re talking about.
Most of Cliff’s varieties are inbred to Early Golden, so it doesn’t surprise me that they taste similar. It is possible that it is an old variety (I don’t know if there are any signs of grafting) or a very good seedling (from some wild population), either way it was rather planted on purpose than grew wild.
I only became aware of Wabash and Woolbright from their mention by my friend Guy Sternberg in his book, ‘Native Trees for North American Landscapes’. I’m sure I probably put out a query among NAFEx members for scionwood… don’t recall for sure who supplied the scion I grafted, but in retrospect, it may have been John Raymond.
John Brittain, of NRNTN, passed away in 2020; at this point, the nursery is no longer in operation, and we don’t know of any plans to re-open. John had a tremendous collection of nut trees, persimmons, pawpaws.
As to the 816 ‘ortet’… It’s a 40+ y.o. tree in the middle of a residential yard that has changed owners several times. Plenty of dings as a result of being hit by lawnmowers over the years. No graft union that I could ascertain, but I’m not sure I can definitively pick out a graft union on some of my persimmons… like the NC-10 I grafted in 1996- I just can’t make it out; some are fairly evident, but others, not so much. .
@Lucky_P a bit of a bunny trail from the OP, but what spacing did you use for your persimmons and pecans and would you use the same spacing again?
AHouse
The pecans were planted on 40x40 spacings, almost 30 years ago.
The persimmons were an afterthought, and I’d run out of space that wasn’t cow/horse pasture, so they were planted at 20 ft spacings down the middle between rows of pecans. ln retrospect, that was a mistake for the long run. While the persimmons were reasonably productive for the first 10-15 years, they’re now so shaded by the overtopping pecans/hicans that they don’t produce much fruit.
At my age (almost 67), I’m now planting pecans/hickories at 25 ft spacings - they won’t be crowding before I shuffle off, and then they’ll be someone else’s problem. I’ll probably continue to plant any new persimmons at 15-20 ft spacings.
I’m planting pecans on 45 foot triangle spacing which will have to be thinned eventually, say in about 35 or 40 years. I’m planting hybrid persimmons on 23 ft triangle spacing. it is close but should be adequate for hybrids.
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard a discussion Buzz had on a podcast where he threw out 32,000 seedlings for his persimmon count with approximately 1% showing no winter die back.
Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your work! You might want to check out the following thread-
@Richard has done some important work gathering and interpreting data for various species including persimmons.
You may be right… I could have been off by a factor of 10… Buzz may have planted 35K seeds instead of 3.5K, but the 1% survival rate rings a bell.
My memory is not fantastic these days. If anyone sees current numbers or if @Buzzferver chimes in that would be great!
I think this was actually on my podcast, haha!
Yours is one I still need to work on catching up with! I think the reference I made was on the Forest Garden, but I may have listened to Buzz’s interview with you too. So much good information out there these days it’s hard to keep up!
Okay, Thank you all-- I’ve put together a bit of a family tree for the American persimmon, but it’s a bit difficult to follow due to the volume of selections out there!
Additionally, questions for the folks who’ve contributed. Within the context of the American persimmon, if you could ask Cliff England a few questions about American persimmon, what would they be?
A few notes here:
I wouldn’t call Hershey a persimmon breeder. If he did any breeding, it was private and he didn’t release his selections through his catalog.
Of his material, “Fruit Dump” is most definitely Josephine. “Hershey Blue / Wafer Seed” is most likely Buhrman. As to the identity of the MacKenzie persimmons, i can only guess. MacKenzie Corner is likely Early Golden, and is the same tree at J. Russell Smith estate. MacKenzie Middle is clearly a different tree. Larger, later ripening fruits. I don’t know their identity.
Downingtown Center / Middle. This one is a bit of a mystery to me. Many call it EG but ive seen EG, and I and a few others who know EG and the Downingtown Center tree agree they are different. The Downingtown tree sometimes begins ripening the end of August, but is most definitely dropping by early September. And it continues well into October. I wonder if it could be Golden Gem. Or perhaps Lambert? But i dont have reference fruits for either variety. Does anyone know this information? I notice Needmore Trees nursery offers Golden Gem – what is their provenance? If it’s not sourced from Downingtown, comparison to the Downingtown tree will be helpful.
MacKenzie Corner and Downingtown Center are also clearly different, so they can’t both be EG. Garretson i suppose is a possibility for either, but having seen Garretson too, i have my doubts.
“Tiny Teardrop” was my ad-hoc name, based on shape, but ive since realized it is Kitch. Very clearly it is Kitch, as that tree was described as fruit drying and adhering to the tree like dates. So far as i can tell, it is a 60n tree. It is named for John Henry Kitch’s father. John Henry was Hershey’s nephew. Thus it is possible Kitch is a wild seedling from Lancaster county PA.
There are several fruiting seedlings at Hershey’s farm, and they are pretty good, but these are feral volunteers, nit the result of his intentional breeding.
Early Golden was introduced by E. A. Riehl in the late 1800s. Fortunately, Riehl kept a daily journal of his activities from 1863 when he built his home until his death in 1925. It is housed in the archives of University of Illinois. I am in contact with them to receive a digital copy, shortly. I am hoping there is info about the Early Golden in there, along with many other juicy historical nuggets I’m sure.
We need a new persimmon wild fruit hunting renaissance to break out of the EG bottleneck. Genotyping can help.
Are you sure about MacKenzie Middle being a named variety ? If I’m not wrong, @Buzzferver mentioned some years ago that MacKenzie Middle is a seedling instead of cultivar.
Here are notes for other clones from Hershey’s catalogues, maybe it will be helpful
- Lambert - have more oblong fruits, medium size pobably little bigger than EG listed from 20’s to 40’s
- Rice - listed only 1932-1934, the fruit is ‘large like an apple’ so probably it will have the biggest fruits
- Kitch - Late November/Early December, hang on the tree untill April and get dried, high sugar content from 1944 to the 1967 small/medium fruit
- Strataburg - same as Kitch but don’t get dry 1944
- Golden Gem - only listed in 1967, little elongated, bears young, medium color
Other trees from Hershey’s orchard that comes from grafted trees are
- Buzzy’s Favorite
- Dales’s Favorite / NTN Buzz?
- Hershey’s Oldest
Lambert sounds like what Eliza Greenman ID’d as Shoto. I’ve been scratching my head over that one as Shoto is not in his ctalogs that I’m aware. I bet it’s Lambert. Oblong fruits and early release in the '20s and '30s… Hershey stopped propagating that variety in the 30s as it’s inferior (slightly astringent if not quite fully ripe, and the flavor isn’t exceptional).
If golden gem is described as little obling fruits then it is not Downingtown Center.
MacKenzie Middle very well could be a seedling. Finding graft scars can be tricky in persimmon and i haven’t visited the tree at Hershey’s farm in at least 5 years out of respect for the privacy of the neighbors there. There have been numerous issues with unwanted out of town fruit explorers trespassing all over people’s lawns there, unfortunately.
I agree to you. Shoto was never mentioned by Hershey in his catalogues. Gerardi also don’t listed in his description of different cultivars (1956) so it was probably lost before that period.
Old photos of Golden Gem were posted on Facebook. I could send you the link.
As for other historical trees I’m sure you have Glidewell and some other clones from Zimmermann’s collection as Etter get his trees from him. I’m not sure what exactly was planted there, maybe you could found it in his article ‘The persimmon’ from 1938.