Hi…I have a producing ‘Meader’ persimmon tree that primarily, but not exclusively, produces seedless persimmons. This year I’ve planted a number of other persimmon cultivars (Yates, Lehman’s Delight, Prok and H-118). I’ve read that Meader is the only reliably self-fertile American Persimmon variety, though these others are advertised as such too. My question is in the absence of any male trees in the area, will Meader act as a pollinator for these other persimmon varieties in the event they actually aren’t self-fertile?
I don’t have a great location for a male persimmon tree and they don’t seem to be readily available so if these other trees can be counted on to successfully produce fruit without a male tree or with Meader acting as a pollinator that would ease my concern.
I’m in zone 6b on the edge of the Blue Ridge mountains in Maryland and I’ve not seen any wild persimmon trees in the immediate area.
Welcome to the group! All of those varieties will happily produce seedless fruit in complete isolation. Meader will not pollinate them, as Meader as far as I have observed and read only produces female flowers (there are a few varieties that can sometimes produce both such as Early Golden). If some of your Meader fruits have fully developed seeds then there should be an unobserved male persimmon lurking somewhere in the surrounding hills and hollers.
Thanks for your response. That puts my mind at ease and I will entrust those trees to produce fruit (I too have only observed female flowers on my Meader which added to my concern)!
You could also graft a male onto one branch of one of your trees to put a male closer by and not have to rely on the unknown male to pollinate your new varieties.
To clarify: Self-fertile means capable of producing viable seeds without pollination. Parthenocarpic means capable of producing (seedless) fruit without pollination. That’s a critical distinction that is often blurred.
If you want seeds, then you need a pollinator. I’m assuming that you don’t really want seeds, you just want fruit. And seedless fruit is better, other things equal.
So if you want fruit, American persimmons are parthenocarpic. They will bear seedless fruit without pollination. I have no male flowers here, and I get tons of seedless fruit. Many/most home growers I know deliberately avoid introducing male flowers because they prefer seedless fruit.
FWIW, the same is true for the hybrids Kassandra and JT-02 as well as the kaki Ichi Ki Kei Jiro. These varieties produce tons of seedless fruits without pollination.
Some people say that seeded fruit tastes better, but I suspect that’s true only for the pollination variant Asian varieties. If I were you, I’d forget about introducing male flowers.
Thanks for educating me on the difference between self-fertile and parthenocarpic, and sharing your success with no male tree nearby. This further makes me confident I’ll be okay without planting a male tree.
One thing that I really noticed this year is about pollination. Since my Szukis mostly male American persimmon died/was murdered?, the number of fruit among all my trees that set has plummeted. I’ve only had 3 this year, compared to maybe 20 or 30 by this time last year. The fruit have no seeds, as opposed to many seeds last year, and all of the previous years. Experts have said that having seeds is correlated with having larger and better quality fruits among the American persimmons.
I think I’m going to buy some scions this year of Szukis and try to graft another tree. In his early research, Claypool noted how big of an effect the quality of the male had on the ultimate quality of the persimmons. That’s why I bought Szukis originally, and that’s why I’m going to get another one now.
Hi there, I have a question for you - Do you find that the seedless fruit is smaller or less sweet than the seeded fruits?
I have read from a few different sources that seedless fruit is lower quality or drops off the tree prematurely and just wondering what your experience is ? Thanks
Here is something else to consider on american persimmon pollination.
There is a northern persimmon 90 chromosomes and southern persimmon 60 chromosomes… and they cannot cross pollinate… for example a 60C southern male can not pollinate a 90C female… and a 90C northern male can not pollinate a 60C southern female.
How this should affect me in a positive way… I want seedless fruit.
I have Prok, Mohler, H118, H63A, Barbaras Blush (all 90C females) grafted and growing well here.
I am in southern TN… so my native persimmons should be 60C… i have several 60C male persimmon trees here…
But since they can not pollinate with the 90C females… I should get seed free persimmon fruit from all of those.
If I wanted seeded fruit… think that I would have to plant a 90C male northern persimmon.
Question: Are your named 90 C females grafted onto 90 C or 60 C rootstock?
If 90 C, then I’d guess there’s a risk that (1) some of the roots are male; and (2) some of the male roots throw up suckers that flower. None of this is a serious problem – you just have to remove root suckers.
I say this because I have found some seeds in my American fruit despite the fact that I have no wild American trees growing anywhere remotely close. So my prime suspect is male seedling rootstock.
The only other possible explanation here would seem to be that either one of the Americans (H63A, Barbra’s Blush, Dollywood) or one of the hybrids (Kasandra, JT-02) throws off an occasional male flower.
One of the characteristics of 60C persimmons is that the growth at the tips of branches is often very fine thin wood. 1/8 inch or less often.
All of the persimmons I see at my place are like that… and so is Rich Tooie at my sisters house.
Makes it difficult to find good scion wood on them.
But all these 90C females (named varieties) I have grafted onto my 60C seedlings… they have much thicker growth at the limb tips… makes great scion wood.
Yes… all of the native root stock I am using here are 60C… when they are seedlings you can not tell if they are male or female.
They just pop up in my field and grow like crazy.
Now around the edge of my fields and along the roadways there are several 60C males.
Out in my orchard where all my 90C females (named varieties) are grafted onto 60C seedlings … if those did generate a root sucker… it would be a 60C root sucker… and it would get mowed down quickly.
I wonder if you dont have a wild 90C male hiding somewhere near your location.
Hope that next year… I get some fruit from these 90C females… and they are seedless.
All of the males I have been able to find around here have that fine whipsy wood at the branch tips. 60C males as far as I can tell.
For a while, John Brittain was offering a 60-C male, ‘Lover Boy’, from his Nolin River Nut Tree Nursery.
IIRC, the thinking was that 60-C pollen might increase fruit set, but seeds were not formed.
IDK if that was just wishful thinking, or if there was a kernel of f truth there.
@JohnS - the late Lon Rombough, a PNW fruit grower, thought that Claypool’s ‘F-100’ was a better ‘bisexual/polygamodioecious’ male than ‘Szukis’. At least in his location.
Seems unlikely. The native range seems to end somewhere near New Haven CT, roughly 100 miles west. And if there were any wild males here, there’d have to be some wild females – you know how that works. I’ve never seen a persimmon in the woods here. The only other possibility (that I can imagine) would be that some other gardener planted a grafted tree on male seedling rootstock that suckered. But I’m not aware of anybody other than me growing American trees within many miles. There’s only 6-7 houses within a 500 yard radius, and I know them all.
