Annoying comments

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#1

For the most part, I hope most of you agree with me that this is a wonderful forum where various topics are discussed and even argued within the confines of the rules of civility and the rules of the forum itself.

However, I just had a topic shut down here because someone made a provocative comment and inevitably it brought a response that completely crossed the line into personal criticism of the author of the borderline comment.

Here’s the thing, some of us were having an enjoyable discussion that was cut off unnecessarily. While I fully understand and sometimes share the desire to perform a kind of public flogging towards an offending party, I believe this kind of vigilante justice is detrimental to the forum.

Anyone on this forum who is offended by something someone else writes has three perfectly functional options if a civil reply, on topic and within the rules of the forum seems inadequate.

You can write that person a personal note to communicate your displeasure and hopefully even negotiate an agreement, although aggressive complaint is acceptable in this context. You can contact the moderators and ask them to intervene. Or thirdly, you can flag the comment and if someone else agrees with your flagging they will flag it also and the comment will disappear.

What I believe you shouldn’t do and the rules of the Forum demand you not do is to seek revenge on the person by insulting them in the open view of the forum. That is not your call to make. That is not a moderators call to make. The forum will be more enjoyable for everyone if we keep these squabbles as private as possible.

This being said, I think we should congratulate ourselves that cases where folks cross the line are pretty rare here and seem to be getting rarer.

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#2

This forum is made up of wonderful people. I have never seen such enthusiasm, consistant enthusiasm in one group ever. The enthusiasm does get confused with expertise at times, however, and I for one have been guilty. I remember being reprimanded on GW after telling another poster about a spray that worked for me and I simply said it works (after planting my first trees). Well, you would have thought I dropped a nuclear bomb in a paragraph. We have a couple of problems that are due to human nature and choice. Many new growers of fruit trees are now experts, that is great but can be misleading to newbies as their information dilutes the well of information from those ‘experts’ we really have in this forum. It might be best to listen and report your experiences as we all want to compare our experiences. There is so much to learn.

We can all google information and cite web sites, those are great for sources, trees, and documented information. We want tried and true practical application of knowledge of growing fruit from those who really do it. How can a backyard orchardist like myself ever compare to Eric Amadio or Olpea or Fruitnut, who are incredible growers? There are many more of you as well, I just do not know all of your names. The back yard orchard experiences are valuable also and again it is human nature to want to participate and belong. That will probably never stop, as it just might curb enthusiasm and a passion for growing on a small scale. Encouraging new growers on any scale is what I have found in this forum.

I personally find unsettling, is the fact that little is mentioned about Organic growing, permiculture, etc. There is so much to learn about all types of sprays, organic or synthetic. Lets just open our ears to hear it. You do not have to agree but there is room for everyone and their opinion in this forum. If you don’t like the post, don’t read it. This is a great group of people who are more than willing to pay for their mistakes by ordering yet another five trees every year! We learn from many opinions. We seem to thrive on photographs of successful growing. I am thrilled to be part of this forum and all of the enthusiasm it has given me to continue to grow fruit trees. Ten years ago and four trees is a big leap to forty trees today. Thank you all for reading, listening and answering. Organic or not. From a very non-expert. Your friend, Mrs. G.

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#3

This puzzles me? How are topics on these subjects being blocked in any way beyond the usual fact checking required to keep this forum useful? Scott and others have contributed a great deal of information on organic methods here and I really can’t think of instances where there has been resistance to posting real information on any fruit growing topic.

I believe every one of us is interested in the safest and least toxic methods to effectively grow and harvest fruit and if there is one thing I’m grateful to the organic industry for is the investment if inspires towards these kinds of solutions.

#4

Maybe ‘Organics’ should have its own category? I said nothing about blocking.

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#5

@alan, I am still learning what I can and can’t post. I stay out of all political or religious conversations, and also about some discussions because I am not here to argue. I stick to specific topics about fruit where I think I can contribute noncontroversially, and where I can learn about others experiences.

@mrsg47, I am organic and strongly support permaculture philosophy. However, I self-censor about that on this forum. I also try to be cautious about what I post here, due to prior experiences last year that were over the line, I just don’t want to repeat it. I don’t criticise people here, who use pesticides, but discussion of organic growing and it becomes a magnet for dissent. I have spoken off forum, to another member who finds growingfruit to be organic unfriendly - I think he stopped posting here. One forum can’t serve all needs. I don’t know why there can’t be a discussion about organic methods without leaving it at that, but discussing organic methods on wide community based forums leads to too much disagreement.

I grow a wide diversity of plants to attract insect predators of insect herbivores, attract native bees and pollinators, and attract and support honeybees. I don’t think that is compatible with insecticides. I have bee hives - not successful but I keep trying. I recycle biological nitrogen. I select plants and experiment with plants to see what grows in my area without pesticides, and aim for a semi food-forest concept in the long run. Could go on and on. I know my neighbors don’t do those things, I just live and let live.

Even so, there is a lot of other information on this forum that can not be found elsewhere, especially on unusual varieties and species, new developments, and propagation, so I check in frequently.

I’m actually pretty obsessive about my own home orchard and vegetable garden. My style is organic with permaculture leanings. I have lost track, must have about 60 fruit varieties or more, now. Some day I need to inventory them. Many are new, or new in my second home location, phasing out of the prior place in town, to sell that house.

What I see here is a group of enthusiastic friends who are very nice people, who share a common interest and paassion in fruit growing and some other gardening. Just as any gathering in workplace or family can break down if people don’t know what topics to avoid for peace and harmony, that is probably true here too.

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#6

Bear, so true. Politics and religion do not belong here, organic growing and ideas do. :grin: Sorry I left out Scott, who is my guru!

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#7

For the record, I believe you were offended at least once by the remarks of an organic
grower.

That really probably depends on one’s definition of unfriendly. In defense of this forum, I believe that there are many people who find strong arguments against their personal beliefs to be unfriendly. I am glad that definition is not universally embraced but it seems our culture is heading more and more that way. It certainly is the case in politics, where many people are only comfortable in their ideological echo chambers and become angered by contradicting opinions.

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#8

I alway appreciate your contributions, Bear. Do you have any books that have inspired your growing style that you’d recommend?

#9

I’ll try to post some topics about organic. Occasionally, I come across some new organic ideas in commercial literature, but haven’t haven’t been that interested in them personally because they aren’t practical for my operation in my locale. I know there are some advances in biologicals I’ve come across.

I think bagging is one of the strongest organic pest controls for those who have the time to do it. Most of the time folks report pristine fruit.

For herbicides, strong vinegar is an excellent burn down herbicide for folks who have the desire to make their own, or can afford to purchase large quantities of it.

I do think Alan is correct, that some organic methods ought to be fact checked. There is quite a bit of suspect info out there about organics, as well as various horticultural methods in general.

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#10

And bagging is something I will continue to do. It has really helped my fruit. I also will try the bags for peaches this summer. All new ideas start somewhere. I just keep my sense of humor about almost everything.

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#11

Alan,

I agree.

I can’t wrap my head around the concept of people needing to have a public “safe speech” space.

When the desire not to hear opinions or facts that make one uncomfortable, especially in a public setting, becomes a “right” which is enforceable against the speaker, I fear for our future.

We cannot allow being disagreed with to be synonymous with being threatened.

Mike

Mike

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#12

Yeah, but you are a lawyer and lots of folks tell me I should have been. I agree with you agreeing with me, however- but if I could find a point of contention I’m always ready for the sport.

Seriously, when we were young and in school, debating was something we were taught. I remember in the 8th grade I was in a debate for and against capitol punishment and the class voted on who they felt made the most convincing argument.

The teacher of the class would probably be fired today for having her young students debate such a controversial subject. Actually I don’t think they teach debating skills at all any more, someone’s feelings might get hurt.

What a loss for the development of deductive reasoning, negotiating skills, and just the basic ability of being able to discuss and accept different points of view.

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#13

@SMC_zone6, hey thank you for your comment! I’ll have to think about books. I have read Steve Solomon’s “Gardening When It Counts”, and his books on Pacific Northwest gardening, although I don’t agree with how some of his concepts are applied. For example, he states not to do soil tests in the Northwest, while I found it very helpful… Not as much about individual gardening but broader concepts, I recently read Tao Orion’s “Beyond the War on Invasive Species” - made me really stop and think about what people are doing, and truisms, and had more insight about herbicides that really made me pause. The Permaculture Institute website can be interesting. A lot of it is about warmer and tropical climates. Temperate and cold winter climates have their own challenges, and need a lot more reasearch.

I don’t want to derail this original topic, so will stop here.

#14

If I’m not mistaken, 1st admendment.[quote=“MES111, post:11, topic:4624”]
We cannot allow being disagreed with to be synonymous with being threatened.
[/quote]

Agreed, hurt feelings should not constitute a threat as long as it is disagreement and not personal attack[quote=“alan, post:12, topic:4624”]
What a loss for the development of deductive reasoning, negotiating skills, and just the basic ability of being able to discuss and accept different points of view.
[/quote]

Again agreed. The loss in our schools of critical thinking, logic, and debate classes will affect our civilization and our interpersonal skills, not to mention debate on what is and isn’t accurate scientifically which affects all on this forum.

IMHO bring on the organics, old wife tales (not synonymous), and any other gardening wisdom, but be prepared to defend it. Check your hurt feelings and any name calling at the door.

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#15

Amen!

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#16

@Chikn
The First Amendment ONLY deals with the government’s right to abridge speech. The error that most people make is to invoke the First Amendment when entities other than the government abridge speech ie: enforcing “PC” standards.

For example, and where I feel it is most dangerous, is that universities the supposed crucibles of free thought have found it expedient to eliminate any speech that offends anyone. By that standard one might be sanctioned for saying … ___apple pie is good and cancer is bad ___ because someone may not be able to eat apple pie for medical reasons and could be upset that everyone is eating apple pie.

We need to define “personal attack”. “personal attack” is no longer a physical attack or even a threat of physical attack. Recently, pointing out someone’s inconsistent prior statements, although correct, was called a “personal attack”.

Growing up I had been called a " dumb jerk" ( as well as other things we need not go into here :grinning:) today a kid would be out of school for saying that.

Having to defend a position is not tantamount to having been attacked even if the defense is to a ridiculous, caustic, stupid, moronic, and unfounded statement against one’s position. ( Sorry… Thesaurus program froze up):wink:

@alan @Chikn … Amen squared

Mike

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#17

Crap, there goes my feelings

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#18

Don’t worry… they’ll come back and stronger too!!!

Mike

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#20

Yeah, but you are one Rabbit able to bond with animals of entirely different political perspectives. I’m not sure if the first time you showed me your teethe it was a smile.

#21

As one who is at once argumentative and over sensitive, not to mention defensive (and funny-looking) I have been guilty of taking well-meant comments in the wrong way and reacting badly and way, way too intensely. It is not a good habit and I try not to indulge it. I will thank anyone here who recalls any of those reactions to continue to “forget” them.

Points I want to make:

It’s hard to convey the subtleties of humor, colloquialism, under/overstatement and so on a board like this. I find it useful to stand away a little when I find myself reacting too viscerally. I have decided that there’s nothing so important that I need to address it in a hostile tone, and I try to remain sensitive to those who might be reading but not participating. And face it, we’re not going to fix the world from here- the best any one of us can do is to fix our own selves, and that’s been a big enough job for me that I’m not really up to taking on anybody else’s personal fixing!

Best to all,

Mark

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