@Barkslip – Excellent! Great stuff.
A minor question – Do you think “sweet oyster” could be a translation error?
Edit: After some playing with Google translate, I found that “oyster” can be translated as “kaki,” which is also the word for persimmon. So I think “sweet oyster” would be non-astringent persimmon.
Yea, I think it is a translation error. That was my initial and still (the same thought.)
Keep in mind that D. kaki was introduced to Japan, possibly by the Portuguese.
https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/taxon/taxonomydetail?id=14293
Yes, D. kaki was introduced to Japan from China. But the Portuguese had nothing to do with it.
The Portuguese first arrived in Japan in 1543. Reportedly, D kaki was introduced form China to Japan in the 7th Century and from China or Japan to Korea in the 14th.
I just asked the question to a person who has Taishu…
I asked, “Do you have male flowers on your Taishu?”
The answer is: “no and they don’t have seeds”.
I’ll let you debate that. It matches what I read.
But only one tree bears fruit and they are young.
OK, so we have contradictory reports. On one hand, numerous peer-reviewed scientific reports state that Taishu has male flowers – with pictures. These reports are based on commercial scale plantings in Japan. On the other hand, one hobbyist grower with few very young trees states that Taishu does not have male flowers. So it’s rigorous science vs anecdote. The reader can decide what to believe.
@Arhus76 – When you say “it matches what I read” I take it that you did not read the articles linked above?
I have to ask – Did the young trees that did not fruit even have female flowers?
Another hypothesis can be made.
Ask Donald Compton to explain the case of Szuskis in Virginiana.
Mine only produces male flowers. It’s one of my pollinators.
But if you study this variety, you will see that some have only female or male and female flowers…
Donald had explained that male flowers were not systematically associated with female flowers… it resulted from his explanation that if you took a graft that made only male flowers, you could have a strict male or vice versa female strict.
This hypothesis can also be mentioned here.
Likewise, my male Szuskis does not fruit…while Donald’s male flowers do fruit.
This results in variations just in grafting due to the choice of scionwood
What you describe in Szuskis is not unique. As detailed in the articles linked above, many varieties such as Fuyu and Jiro (which normally produce only female flowers) sometimes sprout male-flowering shoots. Moreover, if these shoots are grafted, the male-flowering is persistent though (as I understand it) not necessarily permanent.
Taishu appears to be in a different category of trees that is monoecious – it carries female and male (and hermaphroditic) flowers simultaneously. Read the article by Tao & Agaki posted by Richard.
I really do not understand your statement that “Donald’s male flowers do fruit.” That’s impossible. Is it a typo?
p.s. I was unfamiliar with Szuskis so I looked it up. It’s an American persimmon, D. virginiana. Why are you trying to extrapolate from an American persimmon to an Asian, which is a different species?
FWIW, this thread includes a report attributed to Jerry Lehman stating that when grafted, Szuskis is 1/3 female, 1/3 male, and 1/3 hermaphroditic. I’m gonna assume that the supposed male fruiting comes from the hermaphroditic flowers which were mis-identified as male. Note that the fruit from “male” flowers is described as very small.
While anecdotal evidence is generally a reason for me to take pause, as a (mostly) field based scientist I’m also in a position to question “the research” on a regular basis and test a generally accepted hypothesis. Sometimes the things I work on do not have enough data to arrive at a sound conclusion, so I have to punt and hope that what we do works well. If it doesn’t, we try something else.
The scenario with male /female /hermaphroditic flowers on persimmons kind of makes me wonder if treating a branch that has male flowers on a mostly female tree would result in a “sport” type scenario where the grafted tree might be more inclined to produce more male flowers. Maybe I am completely off base.
I wonder if anyone has tried to test this theory with Taishu specifically.
@jrd51 to your point, maybe testing that hypothesis on something like Morris Burton which has known excellent fruit but also a tendency to make male flowers could be tested.
@disc4tw -
<< wonder if treating a branch that has male flowers on a mostly female tree would result in a “sport” type scenario where the grafted tree might be more inclined to produce more male flowers. >>
You are not “off-base” at all. This is exactly what has been observed with varieties such as (from memory) Fuyu and Jiro, among others.
I’m not aware of anyone trying it with Taishu. But I suspect that Taishu naturally produces enough male flowers for breeding purposes that such manipulations wold be unnecessary. According to the report above, it is interplanted with other varieties as a pollinator!
A test on a variety such as Morris Burton is unnecessary, given what we already know about Asian varieties such as Fuyu. But I’d also be skeptical of the ability to generalize of any results from an American to an Asian.
I think the answer to male/female flowers on Taishu or other cultivars such as Szukis can be defined by climate. It’s a similar thought process I have that when pecans come up here from the south, they can flip their protandry or ours taken there can flip. Plants are adapting to changing environments often.
Is it cold or hot or season length or drought or rain or stress of other kinds; is it uncalculated and the male flowers show up just at times; and at varying climates maybe they don’t show up at all or show up more often.
To understand also that Diospyros virginiana has been observed (and many-many) other hardwoods flipping their sex 3-years after they showed their first flower - is yet another adaptation. Trees are capable of all these things.
Wrong. Male flowers easily (will and could) produce fruit in persimmons @jrd51 . It’s totally normal.
Cliff England’s Rosseyanka male(s), he has two of them. One produces male flowers and fruit all over his tree and the other is simply male flowers. Both are (male) seedlings from Rosseyanka.
These are my male lotus persimmons which do not produce fruit but like a mulberry they could potentially. Have half a dozen trees at least.
Been meaning to graft them over i always run out of time.
You got enough seedlings in the ground to start a decent persimmon collection?
Great! I’ll keep it in mind.
You got a good climate.
Few hybrids or good persimmons will grow here. Early golden will grow here which is a delicious non hybrid. Think i could maybe grow hybrids like prok but not nikitas gift. In nearby lawrence and Kansas city as the zone warms they can grow nikitas gift. You never know maybe i can grow it in a few years but not yet.
