We are located on Vancouver Island in Canada and planted roughly 200 apple trees 2.5 years ago. We are looking at installing a trellis system now that the trees are more established (we should have done this long ago, we know, lol). Details on our “backyard” orchard are below:
Rows: 5 rows at approximately 120 feet in length (roughly 40 semi-dwarf trees per row)
Tree spacing: 3 feet apart
Row spacing: 12 feet apart
Ground/ soil: clay/ hard pan
Average wind: below 10 km/h
We are wondering what the most cost-effective solution is and if you can help provide any guidance. We have read a lot of different things online, but they seem to be geared towards commercialized orchards, which we are not. From what I’ve gathered the Single Post system seems to be the ticket using 12’ end posts and 10’ in line posts. We have a handful of 10’ posts and a lot of 8’ posts on hand already and are wondering we can potentially get away with using these?
I appreciate any and all input, even if it is simply to refer me to answers elsewhere that I haven’t already found during my obsessive Googling sessions.
200 dwarf trees is a lot and I would expect that the suggestions for trellis systems for commercial Apples would fit your situation just fine. Your tree spacing and row spacing are typical of commercial Apples. Commercial orchards are looking for the most cost effective design, which is probably what you need too.
Some growers stake each tree with a 10 foot piece of 3/4 galvanized conduit and attach the conduit to a single top wire with strong posts on each end. The price of everything has increased a lot and I expect the costs of a piece of conduit at each tree may be out of reach.
We now use 12 foot posts placed about 2 1/2 feet in the ground with 4 horizontal wires and “H” style braces at the end of the 150 foot rows. We had a trellis failure before we moved to the “H” braces after we lost a 150 foot row of Fuji.
Lots of info on trellis design for high density Apples. Some has been revised to specify closer line post spacing and larger diameter end posts after some growers experienced trellis failures under big crop loads using the older design specifications.
We used mostly 10 foot post when we started but they were not tall enough to get the full yield potential of the apples. The leader on many of the 10 foot posts which we about 7 1/2 feet above ground snapped when loaded with fruit. This ragged wound left a good entry point for Fireblight to enter. 12 foot posts are a Lot more expensive than 10 foot posts so we tried to save money with the shorter posts, but it did not work for us.
T Robinson from Cornell discusses trellis design in a good video with Mike Parker from NCSU that may be useful. I believe the grower in that video used a piece of conduit on each tree…
Thank your message @blueberrythrill! I appreciate the insight and lessons learned, this is great.
We have been looking at a few different designs and have narrowed it down to either:
Single end post on an angle with an anchor wire; OR
H-brace end post assembly
I managed to find some old screen shots that go over both designs in good detail from the Support Systems for High-Density Orchards (2018) report by the BCFGA; I can’t seem to find that article online anymore though.
That’s good to know about your experience and how you have moved to H-braces; costs increase but sure beats losing a row(s) to failure…
I was afraid that 8-10’ posts weren’t going to work. In your experience is this mainly related to less production? Would it be possible to trim/ prune the leader every year to prevent it from growing and snapping?
How far apart did you space your posts? 30 feet?
By my calculations for our five (120 feet) rows, 30 feet spacing and H-brace, we would need:
We don’t have any experience with a single end post at an angle and a ground anchor but the vineyard next to me uses that configuration. I’m not sure how cost of the H brace compares to the cost of a single post with a ground anchor but the H brace gives you a chance to use your existing shorter post and save money.
I expect you could cut your leader to a side lateral the height of the top wire to keep it from snapping and just use the shorter posts. I’m not quite sure how much production you would loose but it would make picking the fruit a lot easier and reduce the need for a ladder when pruning and picking.
We are around 30-35 feet between line posts. We saved some money by purchasing the posts directly from the treatment plant and having them delivered but we had a pretty big order since we bought posts or the Blackberry trellis at the same time.
We used Gripples for wire tighteners at the start but switched to ratchet type tighteners when we realized that the Gripples would not maintain the high tension on each wire that we needed. A good Spinning Jenny helps make pulling the wire easy.
Your calculations look right and I know the costs are high. We tried various ways to cut costs like using Cedar posts or the Gripples. Some of those cost saving measures did not work and required a re-work which produced a final cost higher than just doing things right the first time.
I came across the publication below from a commercial orchard in Ontario. Looks like they are using post drivers or some type of vibrators to set the posts. Nobody in my area had a post driver that could handle tall posts so we used a post hole digger.
Goodluck on your project. Please let us know how it works.
Thank you, again! Do you mean using our existing posts for the horizontal portion of the H-brace system? Or do you mean that there is another way to use shorter posts for the ends using an H-brace?
We’re relatively new to owning the acreage and have learned time and time again the cost of having to redo certain things, this is why I’m hoping we can do this right the first time and was hoping for some real life experience of others, which you have been very kind to share!
I am growing apple and pear trees in three Belgian fences. The two longer fences have 25 trees spaced two feet apart, so reasonably similar to your setup. I used 8’ pieces of black locust for the end posts and green garden t-posts every 8’ in between. The black locust posts are sunk about 2 1/2 feet in the ground. Everything seems to be holding up just fine, and the end posts in particular show no signs of going anywhere. I can see the logic of going with beefier supports for insurance sake, but short of some extreme event, I think you’re likely to be fine going with what you’ve got.
@blueberrythrill, I also forgot to ask what diameter of posts you are using. The price from 3-4" to 4-5" or 5-6" is quite significant and hoping we can get away with the 3-4" especially if we need to buy all 12’ posts.
@JinMA I recently came across the Belgian fences but from the looks of them, they look like they might be more costly! Do you have any pictures of yours?
I’ve posted pictures from the last couple of years in this thread:
As far as cost goes, the main difference I can think of would be that you need diagonal supports to train the trees to, but fortunately my dad grows bamboo, so that took care of that. I don’t know that there’s any practical benefit compared with the more modern high-density setups, but it’s been a fun project.
That’s a nightmare of a photo! If I recall correctly, that was at UMass’s Cold Spring Orchard, not far from where I live. I think it was some kind of freak wind event.
One thing I’ve always been curious about with that picture: why was it only the one row of trees that was affected, while the neighboring rows look to be ok?
I saw that picture in Good Fruit Grower Magazine after I had my trellis failure. My results looked similar.
The article said the failure in the picture was the result of 85 MPH winds in an Ontario orchard. It looks like the posts may have been pulled out of the ground.
High winds caused my failure too but the winds were from a tropical storm that passed quickly and they only reached about 50 MPH. My trellis failed when several 4/5 inch post snapped. The combination of a very high fruit load and high winds was more than the post could handle. It looked like the post had a knot where it failed at ground level.
Thanks for mentioning the failure at the Umass Orchard. I found a You Tube video from John Clemons in 2010 where he discusses the failure. His posts snapped at ground level too, during much calmer winds. His M9 trees uprooted and fell over but his Geneva trees sheared off at the graft union. Interesting part start at around 2 minutes.
@blueberrythrill - wow, that is devastating! We will be going with 4-5" for the end posts.
@toad - thanks for sharing those resources, they are great.
Unfortunately the pounder we are using has a height limit of 10’ so we will be going with 10’ posts (2.5’ in the ground) and will just have to make sure were keeping an eye on the lead/ accept that we may not be reaping the benefits of full production, which is ok as we’re hobbyist cider makers.
This forum is great and I really appreciate all of your help and insight!
