Ohio Treasury is bred to be a productive primocane black (as productive as Jewel but as a primocane);
why do you think your primocane crop is not there?
in the patent, they dont guarantee primocane production if low chill (but can still have floricanes as low chill)
“no recommendation is made for the adaptation of Ohio’s Treasure in low chilling areas”
I was going to add another black next yr and love Jewel and was looking at Ohio’s Treasure but not sure
@rubus_chief … not sure why no fall crop on OTB here… could be chill hours i guess.
Here is what UT Ag says about chill hours in TN.
…
The seasonal average chill hours in Tennessee range from 900 to 1600, the seasonal average chill units range from 700 to 1200, and the last spring freeze 0C (32F) date ranges from the early March through the middle of April, depending on latitude and elevation.
…
My Heritage Reds and Fall Golds… produced a nice fall crop on first year pcanes. Which was even better the next fall.
My first year OTBs did nothing that first fall… and no sign of blossoms on them this year yet. My reds HRs and Joan J and Fall Gold… have blooms or berries on now… some ripening.
I am in z7a southern middle TN… so expect my chill hours would be on the lower ranges of those stated above.
Anyone growing OTB north of me and getting a fall crop ?
I think most primocane reds need less chilling requirement than <1200
I think you are not hitting the primocane chilling requirement; I also think that the lack of a primocane crop means bigger floricane one so all is not lost
in VT we never have to worry about chilling hours - I was not sure how OTB compared to mac black, jewel, and bristol and I am looking to add another or two blacks
The screenshot provided contemplates OT’s chill requirement in relation to other blackcaps (which are floricane-fruiters). The bit at the end about fall-bearing cultivars emphasizes their use in low-chill conditions because there’s no need to chill floricanes to get a crop from the primocanes. They don’t guarantee low-chill production for OT only because it’s untested in this variety.
According to this next paper, many of the more recent cultivars of fall-bearing raspberries (those with high remontancy) seem to have zero chill requirement for primocane production. The only cultivar in the study that responded to cold treatment was Heritage, a very old fall-bearing cultivar.
Phenotyping primocane fruiting trait in raspberry.pdf (1.6 MB)
This other study indicates that the fall-bearing types tested respond to cold treatment for floricane production, but only Heritage was strongly affected by the absence of cold, and that adventitious buds will eventually break dormancy by day length sensitivity even if there’s no cold period.
Naturally these studies were conducted with redcaps, not blackcaps, but the currently available fall-bearing blackcap cultivars acquired the primocane-fruiting trait by introgression from red raspberry, so I would expect them to respond in similar ways.
Thanks - I think the cold chilling requirements in raspberries is complicated. And after the trial below came out, there has been a ton of research into this.
There was a study done in the UK by AHDB that planted 33 red floricane varieties in 2013, they got established in 2014 and then the study looked at everything about them in 2015 and 2016. The control raspberries were Tulameen and Octavia. They were looking for varieties that were better than those 2 and a number were. A very good study
One of the best varieties of the study was developed in Scotland by JHI (which is z6) but the trial was conducted in southern England (z7) and it had chilling requirement problems in its 1st yr with low production but was awesome in its 2nd yr. The conclusion was it was too good to get rid of and should be a variety for cold locations.
That variety was 0485K-1, now called Glen Carren (I would love to grow it)
Subsequent to this study, there have been a number of papers on chilling requirements. it is complicated.
the other top variety from that study that blew them away was Squamish
as to the simple question of why @TNHunter did not get a primocane crop on a productive primocane variety that needs “over 1200 hours” of chilling (since its mom is Dundee and its grandmother is Jewel), like Glen Carren, I dont think it had enough chill hours
Mine are nearing the end of their Pcane fruiting now… I wasnt ready for them to do what they did. They reach the top wire then are so heavy with berries that they fall over sideways… so gotta remember to pin the pcanes when they flower. Large berries and heavy. Big cluster about the size of Jewel. Taste isnt super great to me… but a whole handful tastes pretty good.
OTB pcane in southern TN… Aug 4…
It was tipped around 4 ft… sent out these fruiting laterals… no blooms, no fruit.
Next spring a decent crop… just a bit later than my reds.
I think you tipping them makes them summer bearing and maybe you want that to avoid SWD
I never tip my fall bearing rasps but do tip Jewel (summer bearing)
I stand corrected - Nourse says "it is highly recommended to tip primocane blacks, e.g., niwot)
so your primocane problem is not from tipping…
how would you rate OTB vs Jewel, Mac Black and Bristol (or others)? Looking to add 1 or 2 more
Thanks
Ohio Treasure looks to be good if you want fruit now…in the peak of SWD and yellowjackets.
Ive never tasted Mac Black… but some of my social media friends have and said very worth growing if you want to add a late one. It is one of the most cold hardy as well. I try to grow things that are failsafes…in case of an extreme weather event.
I dont like Jewel personally… for fresh eating but can see where it would be good for processing. However Munger/Bristol are the chosen ones for processing due to their better flavor… otherwise commercial production would grow Jewel.
Munger is a total beast of a plant… i have high hopes for it. It has the nastiest thorns especially when the tips get near the ground… its like they have some kind of defense mechanism. Also the spines appear when the canes are trained laterally for some reason.
I have highest hopes for Allen but nobody knows if it will be true to name…which is why i had to grow every variety to figure it out. It has the best breeding of all of them.
@rubus_chief … i tip prune my HR and FG around 4 ft… and they will send out 3 4 5 nice fruiting laterals which all bloom and fruit.
My blacks do the same… but no blooms or fruit in the fall.
May be the chill.
The way i support my raspberries… 6 7 8 ft long un tipped canes would not work well.
Thanks
I really like Jewel as does my wife (our favorite); was thinking of adding Munger/Bristol (perhaps better taste, more productive but smaller than Jewel) and then something later like Mac Black
I would also prefer floricanes (to avoid SWD) but would add them if niwot or OTB were just too good but sounds like they arent
Allen is an older Cornell cross (Bristol x Cumberland) but weird Cornell doesn’t even list it among the available black raspberry cultivars. And they developed it - not a good sign (and Cornell lists Munger and Bristol separately by geography - east coast nurseries call it Bristol and West Coast call it Munger)
All these “exciting, new” oregon state black rasp cultivars that are “much better” just never get to nurseries so not sure what problems they have; this slide is from 2018 I think and these “much better” mac black (orus 3381-3) and “much better” munger (orus 3013-1) never seem to get picked up at nurseries…
Thanks
they don’t recommend tipping primocane reds but they also use a trellis (they do recommend tipping primocane blacks as I just learned)
@rubus_chief not sure if u have seen this but it has good info on black rasps.
Haut looks good…but it is gone.
As for Allen… from a personal talk to Gary Pense Sr. who has grown every east coast variety of every berry… is a hobbyist like me…but he has also sold commerically the plants and fruits and also trucked them over the Eastern US… he told me that Allen was the best tasting black rasp that he has had… and was grown by a friend of his. On some of the old houzz forums there was high praise also for Allen. But Allen on paper doesnt look very good at all…which is why most folks dont grow it or talk about it.
thanks and good to know
@rubus_chief … Nourse is probably giving good advice for someone way up north in MA.
But down here in the south i can easily double my fall crop by tipping reds, golds in late june early july. Mine easily go past 4 ft then.
And my fall crop is about 1/4 of what my spring crop is. Fall crop happens over 2-3 months but is light compared to spring crop which is very abundant (time to make jam).
Spring crop is the main crop down here… it last about a month… gobs of berries. where they say the fall crop is main crop way up north there…
The far north vs south… different results.
Edit … add later…
This is a Herritage Red that was tipped at 4 ft back mid June. Note my support rods are around 3.5 ft tall… so i tip them around 4 ft.
If i had not tipped it… it would easily be 6 7 ft by now. Single cane.
But tipped at 4 ft… it now has branched out to 6 fruiting lafterals some 2 ft long some less… all with blossoms… going to fruit this fall.
Not all fork 6 ways… some only 3 or 4 but the fewer they are the longer they grow.
I didn’t realize you could tip prune raspberries. Do they shoot off laterals like black berries do with each lateral flowering? I also grow HRs and just started a row of Double Golds
