There is more to breeding new types of persimmons than meets the eye! There are a few questions we need to ask.
What do we want to accomplish? How long will it take? Why hasn’t it been done yet? Why are most of the best persimmon breeders very old men? Are hybrids the answer or the problem? Genetic Diversity and Breeding of Persimmon | IntechOpen
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The persimmon genome is constricted by extensive cultivation of a limited number of cultivars. Not discussed is the unique expression of polyploidy in persimmon reproduction. D. ebenum is stated as 90 chromosome which suggests it could be crossed with 90 chromosome virginiana. Anyone want to develop an ebony tree adapted to northern areas?
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Ive wondered how much ebony a timber form virginiana is capable of developing. My understanding is that ebony is developed in part through accretion of minerals, so presumably age would be a big factor too. Id think there might be some potential for somewhat streaked ebony, similar to macassar. itd be interesting to know more about the genetic potential of the species. I suppose its role as a pioneer species might mean its ebony production is also confined to a relatively narrow ecological niche.
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Virginiana develops ebony wood with age, roughly 70 years for significant amounts. I have a few older 60 chromosome trees that are 8 to 12 inches diameter or roughly 50 years old.
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<< What do we want to accomplish?"
That depends. For American persimmons, Jim Claypool laid out his many objectives very clearly; see his notes… For Asian non-astringents, Japanese and Korean breeders published their objectives, which are different – above all, they want a non-astringent fruit but also target fruit quality, tolerance of storage and refrigeration. For Ukrainian breeders of astringent Kaki x astringent Virginiana hybrids, the primary goal was cold-hardiness, which makes sense given their climate. Personally, given where I live, I’d like to see a cold-hardy, tasty non-astringent. Hybrids could be the answer if somebody works at it. JT-02 gets us halfway there.
<< very old men? >>
They may not be old when they start out. But the process has been time-consuming, so they are old by the time they achieve any notable success. Even so, I’ll bet that Japanese, Korean, and other high-tech breeding facilities are full of young men and women.
<< Why hasn’t it been done yet? >>
I don’t get the question. There are lots of new persimmons. The Japanese and Koreans have released 30-40 new PCNA Kakis, though few are available to us, e.g., Suruga, Izu, Taishu. American and Ukrainian breeders have released two F1 hybrids – Rosseyanka and JT-02, as well as dozens of F2’s etc. Jim Claypool produced thousands of intra-specific American hybrids, many of which are superb fruit and well-known names, e.g., H-63A, D-128, A-33, H-120. What is the “it” that you are hoping for?
Achieving my goal – a cold-hardy, tasty, non-astringent – is complicated by genetics. The trait of cold-hardiness comes from the astringent American species. The trait of non-astringency comes from a subset of the delicate Asian species. The trait for non astringency seems to be recessive and the genome includes 6 chromosomes. So the genetic casino demands that all 6 genes come up non-astringent. Feeding that slot machine is time-consuming work, which few have attempted.
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As an example what i mean by “why hasn’t it been done yet?” is since many goals have been set what are the ones that have not? Do you want to try to cross black sapote with an American persimmon? Kaki x american has been done.
Clark, my understanding is that pollen grain size might be one factor for crossing between species, along with a long list of other known challenges. That’s not to say it can’t be done, but until I/we have some success on the current tasks at hand, I’m not personally planning to add more species to the mix.
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Ah, OK. Well the first obstacle will be that whereas northern American persimmons are hexaploid (6 sets of 15 chromosomes) and southern American persimmons are tetraploid (4 sets of 15 chromosomes), Black Sapote is diploid (2 sets of 15 chromosomes). I’m no geneticist but I think this asymmetry would make successful pollination extremely unlikely, possibly impossible.
MAYBE (this is purely speculative) it would be possible to create a tetraploid or hexaploid Black Sapote by fusing nucleii. But that would require some serious genetic modification. And then the modified Black Sapote would have to pollinate the American persimmon (or vice-versa). This itself would be no small feat – we know how difficult it was to get a hexaploid American to pollinate a hexaploid Kaki (and vice versa) to produce Rosseyanka and Mikkusu.
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That is the type of thing i think we should define in this thread. What are our goals and are they achievable in a lifetime? My suspicion is by the time people get really good at persimmon breeding they are very old. Ever noticed it is mostly old men who do this? I doubt that is an accident. Maybe it is something people start after they retire. Maybe it takes a lifetime to get results?
Old men didn’t have access to the huge amount of information available on the internet when they were born. If I hadn’t found this forum and branched out with researching fruit in general I wouldn’t be on the path I am today. Groups like the Indiana Nut Growers Association are full of passionate people but you almost have to know about them to be involved. Now a search about obscure pawpaw consumption on Google leads you to growingfruit.org and 57 days later, here I am.
I have noticed many younger breeders here, on Facebook, Instagram, and otherwise and I am guessing it is because more information is readily available in their pocket rather than having to make a conscious effort to join a group, go to school, buy a textbook etc…
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That sounds very positive to me. I have noticed more of an interest in pears, apples, cherries and other fruits as well. Here on this forum we all really love growing fruit. Very few of us do it to make a profit. If we do make money we likely bought more fruit trees with what little we made. I’m more interested in self sufficiency than fruit growing by itself. I’m of the opinion we need to look out for ourselves in this world and count on others less.
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FWIW, Claypool’s objectives were:
- Reduce the long ripening period.
- Improve fruit size.
- Calyx holding to fruit when dropping from the tree.
- Increase the already wonderful flavor.
- Skin tough enough to hold fruit when it strikes the ground.
- Better the color of skin or attractiveness.
- Reduce seed numbers.
- Eliminate black spots in fruit flesh
- Improve pulp color & longevity when frozen.
I would add:
- Loses astringency early. Non-astringent while still somewhat firm.
- Ripens indoors easily.
A key question is how to prioritize these goals. For me, the ideal American persimmon:
- Tastes great.
- Loses astringency early.
- Ripens early.
- Holds on the tree when ripe (like Asians)
a. Calyx remains attached to fruit.
b. Stem remains attached to tree.
After these four high priority items, the “nice to haves” are attractive flesh, durable skin, decent size, good storage in refrigeration.
These goals seem attainable. I’d be ecstatic if any one variety met these objectives. In my limited experience, Claypool’s H63A comes closest. IMO, it achieves #3 and #4 well enough. Taste (including sweetness) is very good but can always be improved. Astringency seems to leave more or less as it becomes fully ripe, so earlier would be better. Meanwhile, size is acceptable; flesh seems OK; skin is relatively durable.
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Very qualitatively speaking, my opinion is that interest is on a faster timeline based on availability of information. I think most people have the capacity for growing in a personal sense far more if they simply try to continue learning as they age.
So many people stop trying to learn after finishing traditional schooling and end up grumpy because they don’t continue their education throughout life.
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Most changes are for the better, and that’s why they happen. Sometimes, not everyone likes change. Many farmers still plowed with horses years after the tractor was invented. The amish still do use horses. It is all about inputs and outputs. The amish have hay and horses. The modern farmer has very expensive equipment and fuel. The amish farmer frequently makes more and pays less. Many people dont love their payments they make. I’m always analyzing new methods of farming, but with a firm grasp of my options. The internet is a great tool. When planting persimmon rootstocks it is hard to get a bunch in the ground but it’s the only way to go. Once 100 rootstock are in the ground the sky is the limit on the breeding projects possible. I used a modern approach with heavy machinery to clear the fields. Many wont like my methods but few can argue with the results. Im happy about my apple breeding project. I’m thinking of my age when i think of breeding persimmons and i cant help notice it may be getting late in the game. It is not late to grow and enjoy them
I fully intend to practice no till methods and do my best to accomplish my persimmon farming and breeding with as many ‘permaculture’ /agroforestry /sustainable methods as I can. The research is there showing it is the better method for nutrient retention, soil building (not just ‘dirt’, but soil), and improved soil health and mycorrhizal relationships. There’s a reason some USDA soil scientists advocate for no till, it works.
But back to focusing on the breeding and since you mentioned rootstock, one of my hopes is to develop rootstock for persimmon capable of propagation by cuttings that is cold hardy and late to bud. I hope the Gurneys ‘Caramel Cocktail’ is a good starting point of that effort. If it leafs out relatively late, the work may already be done for us.
This will be paired with selections of PCNA hybrids early to ripen, suitable for colder climates. I am optimistic I’ll see those results in my lifetime, hopefully within the next decade or two.
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I agree with you. Permaculture is very good. Sometimes, i need to get a lot done really fast and dont have time to wait on nature and a gentle hand.
When people see my future persimmon orchard in less than a year, there are some surprised expressions. My life is short and my goals were big. Im trying to make the world a better place than i found it. One younger guy i worked with who saw my pawpaws and pond replied that’s not farming its terraforming. He felt that was a lot of resources spent to develop a pawpaw that would tolerate my part of kansas. The goal is to grow persimmons and pawpaw in quantity that are high quality.
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I thought he considered that very low on the priority list, having made the statement that asian persimmon already fill the size niche. Basically, why would anyone want to make an asian persimmon when they already exist? American persimmon fit a different niche, so why bang heads on a wall chasing something that won’t happen, or isn’t all that important. #9 on that list was a much higher priority to him.
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This reminded me of Holzrische Permakultur https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3iGa539a4M If you asked Sepp Holzer (a Central European permaculture guru) what his favourite permaculture gardening hand-tool was, the most likely reply would be “a bulldozer”. 
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Americans that held its fruit post a ripe state, and had a firmer flesh like some Asians, without losing the American flavor, is what I would personally want.
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My hope is that this is the thread that explains techniques that will allow us hobbyist to make a contribution to the process, with the 2 or so trees which we grow. For example: when my JT-02 tree blooms, how do I control pollination of the blossom, knowing for sure it was pollinated by what I had in mind? Etc. the step by step process.
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