Breeding wild plants into something edible

What genetics factors can help us predict how easily it can be to take a seemingly insignificant wild berry or fruiting plant into a large valuable, edible food?

I often consider how past cultures bred food plants like central american and south east Asians seemed to comprehend and apply fairly well…

This guy joseph simcox seems to think it is fairly easy or important based on his experiences collecting plants. Def a good starting point id say.
https://youtu.be/eQI4yzEl4Q0?si=TlhefpONefAwmcJj

Id like to see some in depth discussion here from members more educated on the topic than myself what that looks like, where would the low hanging fruits be found and maybe we can approach institutions and projects with suggestions for large scale breeding projects.

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Maybe a better question is which things that we call “wild” were domesticated for thousands of years by the indigenous people who lived in the area where they were grown, and are really more “feral” than wild. For example, pawpaws were clearly grown and selected by many peoples of North America, and those selected traits are still present the the “wild” population. Salal was grown intensively by the Salish peoples here in the PNW. There are likely many similar species all over the world that are viewed as “wild” when people have already guided their evolution in the past.

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Folks back in the ancient times relied heavily on observed advantageous incremental -isms I am sure.

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A summary of their book here,

“Using a magnetometer and electrostatic voltmeter Burke has taken hundreds of readings at approximately 80 different ancient sites including Carnac, Avebury, Stonehenge as well as assorted American mounds and Mesoamerican pyramids. The results are clear and compelling indicating that these ancient sites are places where subtle energies emanate from the Earth or are enhanced by the structure itself.
Beyond the extensive research Burke also conducts a number of agricultural experiments and finds that seeds placed at such sites are stressed by the ambient currents resulting in higher propagation rates, quicker maturity and improved crop yields.”

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Improving wild plants can go a bunch of different ways. The first thing to look at is your goal. Are you trying to make wild edibles taste better? Are you trying to create the next commercial crop? Are you trying to make localized edibles (like salal as an example) more wildly distributed and availble? Are you trying to make plants that are technically edible but don’t taste very good (like a crepe myrtle) and turn it into an actually edible? Lots of different reasons why to do this, and lots of different ways to approach such a project.

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I only skimmed the video, but wasn’t he mostly just talking about melons, not wild plants? He mentioned the domestication of watermelons, yeah, but he also said it took thousands of years. Doesn’t strike me as easy.

But to your question: the main thing is to have a wild plant that already produces large, good tasting fruit in reasonable quantities on a plant that has easy cultural requirements. The feijoa is a pretty good example. It’s only been cultivated since the 1920s, so a hundred years, but it’s already got some well-developed cultivars and varieties. But, well, wild feijoa are already pretty close to what you’d want anyway in a domesticated plant: hardy, productive, few pests, nice shrubby form, good sized fruits that are easy to pick and taste good. Finger lime

But plants like that are really few and far in-between, especially in temperate regions (the tropics are way better and there are hundreds if not thousands of tropical fruits that could easily be domesticated, but that’s a different story).

The other avenue seems to be wild plants that are closely related to already domesticated fruits. Shipova comes to mind. It’s a cross between the domestic European pear and the quasi-domesticated whitebeam. Whitebeam are a kind of edible but not all that great fruit, but once crossed with pear, you get Shiova, which is apparently pretty nice.

Similar work has been done with grapes. There are numerous wild American grapes that were crossed with European grapes. While the main goal was to breed disease resistance into European grapes, but as a nice side effect we got some hybrids that preserved the American grape flavors which some people appreciate, all while also considerably improving fruit characteristics.

Then there are semi-domesticated plants where the wild plants are actually already somewhat manmade. This can sometimes overlap with the other categories (I’d be shocked if feijoa wasn’t already cultivated to some extent before the Spanish arrived). The somewhat trendy Amaranth fits this category, though it’s not a fruit. Many, if not most, wild species of Agave are similarly not actually wild–they are hybrids, intentional or accidental, created by native peoples in the relatively recent past. As a result, Agave taxonomy is an unmitigated nightmare where everything is all mixed up and confusing. Finger lime is likely another example, and similarly benefits from being closely related to other citruses and is easily hybridized with them.

Then you have wild plants that are edible and could theoretical be domesticated given enough time and effort. Black tupelo trees produce an edible berry. You might could make different selections from the wild population for sweetness, flavor, and size, and then combine those selections and slowly breed better and better tupelo berries. Eventually, you might even end up with a decent sized berry that tastes good. Good luck in doing that in less than a thousand years though, since tupelo take a decade to start fruiting from seed, and their fruits are described as thin, oily, and bitter to sour tasting anyway. Probably the best bet would be to combine several different species of Tupelo in the hopes of getting a five hundred year head-start.

To my mind, the second category is where there is the most realistic potential. For almost every domestic species, there are a half dozen wild relatives. The hybridization can be difficult, often requiring modern technology, but oftentimes after that first step things get much easier. Hybrid persimmons were only developed thanks to some mad Soviet scientists trying embryo-rescue and tissue-culture techniques over and over until they finally made a breakthrough. After that first initial cross though, it’s pretty easy to breed the hybrids back to either parent. That’s not always the case, but it is often enough to be workable.

The list of potential hybrids and backcrosses is staggering. Some of them are already being worked on, many not. You’ve got maypops crossed with more subtropical and tropical passion fruits–that’s a pretty active field right now. There are a bunch of people crossing wild citruses like trifoliate with edible citruses, mostly in an attempt to breed cold hardy citrus. Of course hybrid persimmon breeding is really hot right now, especially on this forum. Some professional work has been done on grapes, but honestly a lot more could be done. There are so, so many wild grape species and only a few have been used much. Doubly so for Rubus and Ribes. There are dozens to hundreds of species in each of those genera, and only a few are actually domesticated. Most of the blackberry varieties on the West Coast are the descendants of a wild Asian blackberry crossed with European blackberry and a bit of American dewberry genetics. That’s cool, but what about crosses with dewberry again to really get that flavor, or crosses with the somewhat unique tasting New Mexican raspberry or the salmonberry? We crossed European Ribes with a native species in California and got the Jostaberry, but to my knowledge we’ve never crossed European Ribes with clove currant, or with prickly currant, with the extremely tough and drought-tolerant squaw currant or with the heat and humidity tolerant Georgia currant.

There’s a user here on the forum who is working on crossing purpleleaf plum with edible plums and who has a fine collection of improved Chickasaw plums and hybrids of various American species and Japanese plums such as some of the Auburn university releases. Plums are one area where only a fraction of the possible work has been done. There’s something like 50 different plum species, only three or four of which are domesticated. That’s a massive, massive pool of genetic material. And similar things can be said about cherries. And apples and their relatives, and pears and their relatives.

A whole new branch of commercial blueberries resulted from the domestication of rabbiteye type blueberries, and yet another, quite promising, branch came from crosses classic northern highbush blueberries with southern species of blueberry. But there are so, so many more species of blueberry and potential crosses. Want a blueberry that ripens in the fall? There’s genetic potential for that. Black blueberries? Plenty of possibilities for that. Ground cover blueberry plants? Might be some ploidy issues but nothing automatically impossible.

Goumi is just now seeing some popularity, and the newer selections of goumi are pretty decent. But the harvest window is pretty short. If only goumi had relatives that ripen in the summer, relatives that ripen in the fall, and relatives that ripen in the dead of winter… And maybe relatives with larger fruit. As it turns out, it has all of those, because the genus it is in is enormous, dozens of species.

We managed to cross two species of persimmon, which was a great achievement. But did you know that genus has over 700 species in it? Most are tropical, yes, but two are temperate, and at least two more are subtropical…

Breeding cold hardiness into domestic species is another pretty significant area of work. I mentioned citrus already, where two or three wild or wild-ish species, the trifoliate, ichang papeda, and taiwanica citruses, together with the already domesticated kumquats and various mandarins such as Changsha, all can provide some degree of cold hardiness when crossed with regular citrus. And for exceptionally dry areas, Australian desert lime is a wild citrus with unbelievable drought tolerance and a decent bit of cold hardiness too, so I can’t imagine how crosses involving it, trifoliate, and some edible citrus won’t eventually make for good fruit trees in places like western Texas.

There’s a fairly close relative of avocado native to Mexico that’s growing just fine in Raleigh NC, zone 7. Other, not quite as closely related, species are native to the Carolinas and hardy into the warmer parts of zone 6.

There are relatives of Chinese yangmei that are native to Russia and Canada. Can they be hybridized? No one knows, we haven’t tried it yet.

There is an edible banana species that fruits and flowers in the warmer parts of zone 7, but the fruit are pretty poor quality and aren’t worth trying to eat. Banana genetics get complicated, and seedless genes are almost a must-have, but still, seems like something a well-educated and passionate amateur breeder could pull off in a lifetime.

There’s a species of Annona hardy to 9a or 8b. There’s a whole lot of the US that’s now in those zones or warmer. There are guava species, good tasting ones at that, that are just as hardy or perhaps a little more. Some Eugenias can take temperatures down into the upper teens. Almost all of these are basically wild species, but are in genera that have some exceptionally good fruit. Indeed, some Annonas often make it into lists of the best tasting fruit on earth.

Certain pepper species are root-hardy into upper zone 8. And the solanum genus has an enormous variety of different fruiting plants, some of which are also surprisingly hardy. There’s a bit of work being done on them, but not all that much considering just how massive the genus is.

Papaya has some cold-tolerant relatives. And baring that, some of the smaller, much sweeter varieties of papaya ripen up in just a few months. Just breeding those varieties of papaya to mature faster and flower in long-day periods would be all it takes for folks to start growing papayas as summer annuals just like how we grow tomatoes and peppers.

There are Cinnamon genus species hardy to zone 8, and two star-anise species that, while poisonous, are hardy into zone 7, and native too. Chinese nutmeg-yew has edible nuts, its close American relative the Florida nutmeg-yew has been grown, successfully, in Michigan.

The list goes on and on and on.

I know a lot of folks get excited when they learn that such and such a weed is actually edible if you boil it twice and leave it in the sun to dry after treating it with slacked lime. But, well, we frankly don’t benefit much about yet another marginally palatable green. There’s so much more rewarding breeding work that could be done instead of one more person growing a patch of Jerusalem artichokes that they’ll rarely eat anyway. But a lot of this work is difficult, and all of it takes a long time. Worse, most of these crosses would only have much of a chance at success if non-traditional breeding methods are used to at least get things going. But, for example, tissue culture isn’t actually that hard if you’ve got a good dedicated set up, there are even YouTube tutorials and channels for DIY tissue culture. So, just for example, a few hundred hobbyist fruit growers doing their own pollen freezing and embryo rescues for outlandish and daring crosses seems entirely realistic, and were that to happen, I suspect we’d see all kinds of new and interesting fruit pop up, and much, much sooner than if we just stick to trying to domesticate single species of truly wild (and therefore mediocre usually) plants via manual selection.

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Richard sent me a paper from 10 years ago on crossing ziziphus jujube and mauritiana, collaboration of an Armenian and Israeli scientist. They managed to get some viable hybrids in the embryo rescue stage, died later, DNA analysis showed successful cross. Project just needs continued, probably money.

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That’s cool! Man, the bigger fruits and much faster growing trees with Z. mauritiana would be amazing to breed into standard jujube. Something like that might be a viable alternative to apples at that point, at least in the warmer areas where apples are problematic and in regions too dry for good apples.

I think one thing people don’t usually realize is that university research is way more expensive than the same kind of research done outside the university system. DIY embryo rescue might cost a few hundred bucks, since all you need is to jerry-rig up some kind of tissue culture box (plenty of tutorials online), and an out-of-the-way spot to put it. You also need two parents, but most folks on here are already growing some domesticated fruit and would have space, maybe even greenhouse space, for some near wild relative. Make the cross during a weekend, see how far along the fruit gets, and then either rescue when it aborts or wait till next year and do the rescue right before it aborts. Culture the embryo, pot it up with supplies you already have, grow it out in your yard, and see what happens. The opportunity cost is low, the equipment cost can be quite low, and the time investment is incidental to the fruit growing hobby so it doesn’t really cost anything either. I’d guess most folks on this forum could do that project for a thousand bucks.

At a university… You need to get a grant approved, reserve a section of the university’s agricultural trial campus for several years, which might be urban or rented land or both and probably costs a fortune, buy the parent species and grow them out long enough to start flowering, hire some grad students to watch the trees and make the crosses and then retrieve the fruitlets at the right time, reserve a section of the university’s cellular biology labs, complete with world-class positive pressure, sterile grow rooms, culture your plantlets either by hiring a professional or having a professor on your team who is an expert in tissue culture, and then in order to justify all that funding you need to do genetic testing to verify the crosses took place, which means collecting samples and sending them off for sequencing or having another team of molecular geneticists screen the parent species and determine the appropriate markers to look for in the first place. Money money money. And don’t forget to pay the journal dues so you can try and get the paper published, since the whole experiment was for the sake of a paper anyway, and the resulting hybrids were probably just tossed in the trash once the genetic tests came back with the right results that you could publish.

Something similar enough happened fairly recently. The Millennial Gardner, who is an engineer of some kind by profession, did a bunch of research on artificial fig pollination and ended up developing his own DIY method for fertilizing figs. One that is a bit time-consuming but pretty darn easy overall. And it worked. Now a few years down the line he’s starting to evaluate the new fig plants he bred and select for what he wants. I suspect quite a few folks on the fig forums saw his videos and said, “hey, that’s not actually so hard, and I’ve got just the cross in mind.” A 100 years ago, even just propagating figs from cuttings wasn’t all that common, now most people can do it pretty darn consistently, especially since parafilm, peat moss, pearlite, LEDs, humidity monitors, and plastic containers are super easy to come by in the modern age. We might be a decade or two away from a massive explosion in the number of fig varieties as people start trying to breed Col de dame texture into Chicago Hardy, or Smith flavored figs that can handle the cold and low sun of the northwest, or who breed for even better nematode and rain resistance using LSU Purple, CLBC, Celest, etc. All because one enterprising fellow decided to try doing something “only the universities can do” at home for a fraction of the price. I mean, how much has The Millennial Gardner spent, versus how much did it cost to run the LSU breeding program? And since so, so many more and better varieties are already available, there’s no need to spend nearly as many generations breeding as LSU had to.

Shoot, another example is right here on the forum. There’s a fellow who, iirc, bred the world’s first primocane fruiting black raspberry. It’s not impossible to pull off these kinds of feats. It just takes patience, hard work, willingness to dabble with modern breeding methods instead of relying on OP and luck (though sometimes OP and luck will do the trick too), and willingness to just give it a shot and breed something for your area.

There’s so much stuff like this that can be done. Some of it gets a bit esoteric or arcane, so I don’t think we’ll see that many at home somatic fusion labs (but then again, if you’ve already got tissue culture going…), but more and better armature breeding, both with established varieties and with big crosses, seems entirely doable, especially as forums like this flourish and more and more gets written about in amateur, public spaces on how to actually pull off this kind of breeding work so it doesn’t just remain the exclusive domain of trained scientists and occasional folks who retire from the plant breeding and propagation industry.

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Thanks for the informative posts, i think you and many readers enjoy. That’s exactly what i am yearning for. I know i myself am little more than a cheerleader and potentially a contributor. I see what you described as a need for a platform that streamlines this coordination between contributors in this field.

Obviously many people would be interested, theorizing how best to build the important bridges and convey the important information like lab supply links, tec tutorials, and mind or genetic mapping or simply buy this and this plant and go for it then share the results. Having a platform like this forum where people can coordinate the information for the public hobbyist and hopefully beyond one lifetime also is helpful.

Still u would not want to taboo the involvement of institutions but it is fair to be realistic of when and where they bring value to the end goal if at all.

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(To self: Don’t pull this thread off-topic, don’t pull this thread off-topic, don’t pull this thread off-topic…)

I’d love to hear more about that “fairly close relative”! It is my understanding that americana is the hardiest out of all the other Persea species that are in the same clade with avocados (i.e., the half or so of the genus that are also graft compatible with avocado).

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Do it :slight_smile:

It’s listed by the JC Raulston as Persea liebmannii.
https://jcra.ncsu.edu/horticulture/our-plants/results-by-name-serial-number.php?serial=108108

https://jcra.ncsu.edu/resources/photographs/plants-results.php?serial=108108

I suspect that’s a synonym with some other Persea, but I’ve no idea which one. Director Mark Weathington made comments about it being fairly close to P. americana, but I don’t know if he meant in the same clade. The one in Raleigh is doing very well, it’s big and healthy. For what it’s worth, I did notice that it doesn’t get the leaf galls that P. borbonia gets around here so much that I think are caused by the red bay psyllid.

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Thanks for the morning detour!

There’s more info from the IDS Trees & Shrubs database:

Under the name Persea podadenia this species has a limited presence in cultivation in the United States, apparently from material introduced by Yucca Do Nursery, Hempstead, Texas (Hogan 2008; Woodlanders 2007–2008). It grows particularly happily in the southeastern states but also does well on the West Coast (Hogan 2008), forming a pleasant, densely crowned small tree that is hardy to –12 to –14 °C. It is similar to P. borbonia but is hairier on the twigs and leaf undersides.

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Ah, now that makes sense. Those guys introduced an enormous amount of material from Mexico and Central America to the US, much of it through JC Raulston.

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The Eurasian grape was domesticated 6-8,000 years ago, but the genetic evidence shows that cultivated grapes started losing genetic diversity ( a hallmark of domestication) and diverging from their wild relatives as much as 22,000 years ago. This is thought to reflect low-level selection by humans for desirable traits before “true” domestication. I would guess that the same could have happened for other fruit and nut producing plants.

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The prickly pear is a great example of selective breeding for quality fruit that actually took a very short time compared to say peaches.
One plant i always wanted to work with was the desert hackberry.
In its natural habitat of the southwest the quality can vary quite a bit,but I’ve found individual plants with much larger than average berries and much higher brix.
An average brix for desert hackberry would be 6-10,but I’ve found specimens with brix as high a 20.

Growing them in optimum conditions with regular water and carefully fertlizing them can produce berries the size of a medium blueberry when they are usually the size of an extremely small blueberry.
This would probably be a seed experiment with some cross pollenizing possible from other positive traits specimens.
They are very sweet and taste something like a mild melon and pear/apple flavor.

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coincidentally, a couple days ago i posted in my local fb plant group that we need to select for and breed the best native cherries we can find.

left is hollyleaf cherry, right is catalina cherry. flesh is sweet, juicy and green, but there’s not much of it.

@a_Vivaldi you wrote lots of good stuff, and i like that you used the term “opportunity cost” but you might have used it wrongly. if the members of my group who saw my native cherry post don’t take the time and make the effort to start trying to improve our cherries, then evidently the opportunity cost for them is too high. maybe for one person the opportunity cost is binging their fav korean drama, while for another person it’s curing cancer. who knows. for each person the opportunity cost is different.

for each person the trade-offs are different, and these differences matter, otherwise markets wouldn’t be as useful as they are. the root of the problem is that we don’t really have markets for intangible goods.

facebook has, or had, the option to “boost” a post. you’d basically spend money on a post in order for more people to see it. just now i checked the options for my cherry post and didn’t see “boost” included. but i did see the option to “pin as featured”. this option is only available to group admins.

if fb group posts could be crowd “boosted”, and sorted accordingly, which post in my group would be the 1st result? i don’t know. since we can’t see the demand for these intangible goods, the supply is going to be way off. maybe there are too many posts about succulents and not enough posts about fruit.

currently i don’t have the opportunity to spend my money on a very fleshy native cherry. this is simply because such a cherry doesn’t exist. but do i want it to exist? yes, of course. and do my wants matter? yes, of course. so this is why we should all have the opportunity to spend our money on things that should, but do not, exist. then and only then, will resources be correctly divided among all the possible fruit improvements.

right now i have some fig seedlings that are the result of my fig breeding. i plan to put them on figbid or ebay. how much money will i get for them? if i only get a few bucks, then this is feedback that i barked up the really wrong tree. i did a lousy job of using society’s limited resources. i’m a squanderer. therefore, don’t put more of society’s resources in my incapable hands. don’t give me 50 acres in southern florida. don’t give me talented and capable employees. don’t give me 100 laminar flow hoods.

fact is, nobody benefits from my trying to guess what the demand is for something that doesn’t exist. nobody. not a single person benefits from me using resources wrongly instead of rightly. this is why we’d all greatly benefit if the guesswork was eliminated entirely.

here on the forum you should be able to post your dream fig, assuming you have one, and everyone should have the opportunity to “boost” it. the more money people spend on your fig dream, the faster it will become a reality.

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There is actually a website that does something similar to this called https://www.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/ (I believe @swincher uses this for their cold hardy avocado project). Its all (afaik) community run projects for all sorts of different farm related things. Any sort of small or large scale effort to do an fruit improvement project (that isn’t being backed by a corp or institute already) would benefit from something like that.

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I actually just planted some seeds this year of Carolina laurel cherry, which is a very close relative to these. It has black fruits that are a bit smaller than the hollyleaf you’ve got there. They have a remarkable flavor, it’s like maraschino cherry and amaretto together with lots of high notes. But very little flesh and the seeds are considered very poisonous, moreso than cultivated cherry.

But what’s gotten my attention: the dark, glossy, dense bushy plants have nary a single pest or disease. And the fruit ripens in fall or winter when the only potential pests are birds.

It would take some clever breeding work to make them into something worth picking, especially given how small and thin the fruit is. But imagine the potential of a dense, bushy, glossy evergreen, fast-growing, highly ornamental, disease and pest and drought resistant, rich tasting, fall-bearing cherry with lovely smelling and highly frost resistant spring blooms that’s hardy zones 7 to 10?

Sure, if I took a survey and asked people how often they want to pick fresh cherries in the fall, I suspect I’d get about one in a million replies that weren’t “never.” No one wants to pick cherries in the fall. But that’s because they don’t know there’s even the (potential) possibility. Steve Jobs put it well, “people don’t know what they want until you show it to them.” Were someone to breed a good sized cherry from Carolina cherry laurel, it’d likely become one of the most popular fruit trees in the South.

Build it and they will come.

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Interesting, I was led to believe they were unpalatable. We have probably about 100 yard fenceline that is all carolina laurel cherry. Giant 15-20ft tall bushes. Tooooons of fruit that basically ripen on the same schedule as sour oranges (which is the rest of that fenceline). I gave out about 60ish seedlings from our yard as a part if a grant we have for work a couple of weeks ago. Beautiful native tree, I guess I have to try the fruit this winter.

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The one growing near me is pretty good. The only real issue is the take thin fruit. And the cyanide in the seed.

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