Can I plant espaliered apple tree in circled area? Gray house is on the north side. There is about 9-10’ to the nearest trunk.
The trees that are marked with X could be removed, the one with question mark is exactly on the border line, so I am not sure… The border is very weird there - it goes on a good angle to the drop and the wall of the gray house(The metal trellis on the very left are not on my land, but all the trees with crosses are)
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Unless the surface roots are too thick to get a good planting hole…you can plant there.
The question really is: Is it going to do well there?
And do the big trees have taproots or lots of surface roots.
If it gets 3 or 4 hours of sun, then it can survive ok given a little irrigation…have some doubt about it thriving though.
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Looks like it might have decent southern exposure?
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Yes, trees are on the north side, so it will have at least 6-7 hours of sun on the front side, but back will be mostly in the shade… Having the trees on the edge of the property actually makes any gardening changeling even 30-40’ away from the border. From root perspective it is actually better closer to the trees, than 30’ away, where they grow their feeding roots. I dug my garden beds this fall and removed a lot of new roots. Beds where built last fall on top of the grass, so what I removed grew in a year…
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Why isn’t there more grass there? Lack of water or sun?
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Most likely because of the acidic soil. That area was never a cared for lawn, they removed a huge pine and spread the woodchips around. The pine needles fall every year making pretty thick cover. There were acid loving weeds on the woodchips, I sprayed Roundap couple time this summer.
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Raised beds can get you up out of tree roots…at least for 3 or 4 years. Having a hose handy in dry spells probably a necessity. It’s possible to garden in challenging places, just
have to tackle ‘longer odds’.
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The soil is sandy and somewhat poor there, if I decide to plant the tree at this spot, I will expand the existing “bed” to at least 5-6 ’ circle where I raise and amend the soil with compost and may be peat moss, to keep moister in. And then I will be adding woodchips around so they slowly build better soil. I may need fertilize the area more than normally…
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The most important question is what type of mature trees are to the north within about 40’.
If they are western cedar or any other variety with spreading feeder roots, they will take all the nutrients you provide to your apple. Cedar trees can send surface feeder roots out to 40-50’.
I’m living with one and fighting their roots is always a task
Dennis
Kent wa
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There are huge White pines and also some smaller maples and wild cherries.
That being the case, you probably have room for a standard or several semi dwarfs. I would cut down those smaller trees to avoid intrusion into your apple tree’s future drip line which for a standard tree can go a good 10’ out from the trunk. For semi dwarfs the drip line may go only about 5’ fro trunk. Typically you want to fertilize and water out at the drip line as that’s where you feeder roots will want to grow.
So some digging down several feet at those locations might be advisable before you finalize and order new trees, just to be certain you can avoid intrusive roots.
Good luck
Dennis
Kent, wa
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I have a pear growing that far away from spruce tree and they seem to grow just fine.
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I have some stone fruit trees nearly that close to some mature redwoods. Redwood roots spread like crazy hundreds of feet from the tree. Those fruit trees are a bit dwarfed and I’m sure the redwoods steal water and plenty of fertilizer. But I like that the fruit trees have reduced vigour and they’re loaded with fruit that I have to thin every year. I think you’ll be fine if you give your tree some nice amended soil to get a head start.
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Thsnks!
I have tried planting close to massive maples and the trees never grew. Moisture and nutrients stolen by the dominant tree.
I’ve tried others near pines like that. The soil was very sandy and they never did well either. If you plant something I would go standard or at least semi-standard rootstock as you probably need the vigor to compete.
Try it and see how it goes.
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I install fruit trees at many sites every year and have seen trees stunted by established forest trees on many occasions. I question your statement, even if it appeared to be true anecdotally on your site because trees utilize all the soil they need and have access to and wouldn’t underuse soil because it is too close- that soil represents more bang for the buck as far as maintaining a root highway, so to speak.
White pines aren’t as bad as some of our native forest trees at grabbing water and nutrients, I think, but they are bad enough. Conifers in general use significantly less nitrogen and water to survive than deciduous trees tend to Comparing Conifers and Deciduous Trees - WNPS Blog - Botanical Rambles, although that may not take into account the nutrients in the leaves in conditions where they remain under deciduous trees. Leaf litter of deciduous trees contain more nutrients than pine needles.
Beyond theory, I’ve dealt with your problem at several sites over the years, including on my own property where I started my orchard over 30 years ago. Once trees are established they can compete- you can help them establish by using a strong spade like a King of Spades with the largest blade and cutting as deeply as you can an area on the north side (in your case) of your apple trees in early spring. If you do this for 2 or 3 years the new trees will likely be established well enough to compete without the help. Do everything to maintain highest vigor, including irrigation, mulch and generous nitrogen from your chosen source.
Understand that when you sever tree roots they will send out a riot of growth right at the point they are cut, much like a stub-cut branch. If you do a second dig in early summer it will probably help even more, but doing it once in spring has worked well enough for me.
I’ve often thought about creating pits and lining them with heavy landscape fabric or even copper screen to stop competing roots from entering the soil I want for establishing trees but never tried anything because it would be a big project.
Something similar and much easier would be to first size up your trees in large pots before planting them in your soil. One advantage of the bearing age fruit trees I sell from my nursery is that they arrive already of size enough to bear crop- but they still need help at least the first year of establishment at a site like yours.
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Agree totally with Allan’s prescription! Ideally if you have a farmer nearby with a subsoiler, and a powerful tractor, you could run that tool on your property line each year to sever all roots down to a depth of 2-3’. Otherwise, think about renting a trencher to cut down about 24” deep on your property line. As Allan explained, root pruning is only temporal! So this will need to be repeated probably at least once until your tree matures and can compete with its seniors. The other very helpful thing you can do is to construct a deep wood chip bed on your property around your new plants once you have severed the mature tree roots.
Dennis
Kent wa
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I’ve never seen a trencher that dug down 24". Is this a commonly available tool? I just answered my own question with a quick search. Home Depot rents them and they start at 24" and go up as high as 48"
I love this forum- this could be very useful info to me. Believe me, using a spade is very tough work, but at least we aren’t talking about clay, but with sand the depth will have to be much lower.
Unfortunately, this is not possible, where I am. If I have more space, may be. But there is literally 10’ between property line and the spot in question. In order to cut pine roots, I will have also to cut apple tree roots. Also, there are raised beds preventing any machinery access to the property line. All I can do is a good old shovel… or, what may be even more efficient good old mattock. I have one that goes about a foot deep…
I think you should take a look at the rental 24" trencher. I’m sure you could use it in the same way as a tree spade- it only looks as wide as a commercial lawn mower.
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