I think there would probably be less sunburn if they were pointing south. I mean at the height of summer the sun is almost over head, but many of the hottests months after the summer solstice on June 21st are when the sun has reversed direction. Putting them the way I did, pointing North, it is like standing in the sun with our face pointing south, collecting sun rays on the solar panel that is our nose and we know how that ends. I’d probably point them south next time around.
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Thanks for the vidjya on those cordons. It made impulsively add another 10 rootstocks to this years order. I’m trialing varieties that will hold up to our brutal texas summers and this system would have been an easier way to go about it had I known before.
Anyway, happy to get to give it a try now.
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Hey Steven - thanks for sharing your thoughts.
The last day has been a bit of a paradigm shift for me… prior to this week, I was of the mindset that the most dwarfing rootstocks could not work here, and after talking with a grower who has a few hundred trees maturing and learning that some of his are on Bud9 as well as another local orchard he works having some on Bud9 it was a departure from my thought that I had to have larger trees which I’d multi graft. I’m glad he sent me the link to your video.
Most attractive for me about this system is the potential it has for growing season extension and more reliable blossoms/setting of fruit. Weather is particularly temperamental here in Colorado in spring and fall, often getting intermittent cold snaps. For a while, I’ve thought about how I could have a row of trees with a guy wire over-top, that I could hang a sheet of plastic over on ‘too cold’ nights with some Christmas lights to distribute a little heat. But, it’s windy here, and a big sail was an issue. However, with the shorter height, more of a hedge form, stubbier stronger branches, and a support structure already in place (that could have a higher guy wire strung), suddenly that starts to come into focus as manageable and real. The ‘hedge’ form also helps that vision a lot.
Spent a lot of time today looking into spur/tip bearers, so your timing is great - thank you. Found the HOS listing of cultivars and their habits. Also, read up on some UK sites. It seems like your initial planting (tree tips pointing N with more exposed trunk) is in-line with what RHS recommends “for maximum light penetration”. That said, I see it the way you do about both the sunburn, as well as light shining up from the under side of the tree (versus more naturally, from above). I think the sun may be less intense there, as well, but will try to find someone in the UK who has planted the other way to see if it had less growth.
At this point, I’m quite sure I’m going to do this, and have a lot to work out in a short time. I need to find out if I could keep the Bud10 to a reachable/coverable height of about 7’… I’m not clear if cutting the ‘leader’ back by up to 12" to keep the height lower would send a signal to the tree to not fruit (as much)… Bud 10 could have a lot of advantages here with the larger root mass (less drought sensitive) and it looks a little less vigorous than Bud 9 (from what I read today, sounds like highest-vigor rootstocks are harder to manage with the cordon). For backyard fruit production, do you think it’s important space out the Bud 10 further than the 2’ you were suggesting for Bud9?
I also have to figure out the grafting aspect… I’ve grafted maybe 30 times onto mature apple and pear trees, but no bench grafting. Today I read something about not using bench grafting for cordons if it’s going straight into the ground. Seemed a bit confusing, and I’m not able to find that article again. What type of graft would you recommend?
Then, I need to pick out scionwood and get it ordered while still available (hopefully). I’m thinking of doing 2-tiers of grafts like you have and making the bottom tier something that is a bit more reliable/known to work locally. Does that second-tier graft happen in the 2nd year in-ground?
I can’t say much about BUD 10 yet. I just know it is small, but bigger than bud 9. I’d probably plant it the same. If your goal is primarily fruit production for home use and not experimenting and trialing stuff, I’d probably go with 2 feet. You can bench graft and put right in the ground if you are taking care of them. You’d normally put it in a pot or nursery bed otherwise, so not really any different. second tier can happen anytime the tree is tall enough. I would try to view the whole thing as an experiment. You’ll probably change your mind on stuff later, but not big deal if you just work them over to whatever new stuff you want.
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Thanks for the guidance. Yeah, totally an experiment. But, a fun one! Yep mainly for home production with a lot of varieties which will get changed out over time. As long as I get rootstock/spacing worked out, I should be good, and it sounds like 2’ is a good go-to number, so one down, one to go.
I don’t have B10 rootstock myself. So can’t speak from experience.
https://apples.extension.org/apple-rootstock-info-b-10/
https://apples.extension.org/apple-rootstock-info-b-9/
would rate B10’s vigor as higher than B9 not lower.
I personaly would not space them further apart. Since the cordon “espalier” form would than disappear a bit.
Other effects to consider.
Drought resistance/rootmas can be both a cultivar property or a direct consequence of vigor.
If compared MM111 rootstock vs Bittenfelder (seedling from controlled seed source for homogeneity)
And the MM111 seemed to have longer and more rope like and more spread out roots. It lacked the taproot of Bitt though.
Maybe there is a similar effect on B10 compared to B9. But B10 could also be more drought tolerant because the higher vigor makes a larger rootmass that’s inherently more drought tolerant. (ie, not a cultivar trait, but vigor related)
Vigor By planting tree’s really close together there is lots of root competition, and you inherently loose some vigor. If experienced this by planting tree’s on a variety of rootstocks (from M27/P22 to MM111/seedling) really tight together in a test row.
Although there is some difference. All trees are much more uniform than i expected. And the MM111 even fruited 2e year. (without or with minimal pruning)
I remember reading the same in cherry rootstock tests. Close planting could make dwarfs and more vigorous rootstock behave almost the same.
So i personally would keep the planting distance the same. Regardless if their on B10/B9. However I’m not sure the B10 will be more drought resistant if their competition and pruning will reduce their vigor to match B9.
Your fine using bench grafts for cordons.
I mostly bench graft on rootstocks. (why plant out first than graft if you have the convenience of bench grafting.)
If you push enough growth to get to the desired height after the first year. You can graft the second “tier” next winter. I however probably would not.
I personally would prune them back 2e winter. To force more side growth. That you pinch back spring/summer to create loads of spaces for spur and small side branches.
If you graft your second variety next winter and push that for more elongation of the cordon growth. You risk getting some blind wood at the bottom of the cordon, that’s less vigorous than the top. Nothing that can’t be corrected later. But probably easier if you get good growth low first.
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P.16 is finding some favor over M27 for containers, cordons and espalier. A bit thick trunks. About 25-30% more fruit and large fruit size. Wish it was available here.
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Thanks, Oscar. I’ve observed you are always so knowledgable in these ways and have such good information to offer.
Thanks for calling that to my attention. You are definitely right on that. I think I misread something in the NC-140 or intermountain fruit site. In my case, it’s not as good, but good to know.
On the drought side, that’s good to understand. I did reach out to the US vendor or the rootstock to understand how it works in different soils, and when they call, I will also ask them for some information about drought tolerance (I haven’t found anything on either). But, I was assuming that both for wind (less of an issue with the cordon guy-wires) and dryness, more roots would be beneficial in one way or another. However, I understand that with the competition the root mass will be yet smaller, and I assume (right or wrong?) that in cordon form with less above-ground mass, that the root mass will be yet again smaller. Given we have both dry and cold conditions (down to -25C), I’m hopeful a cordon can do OK here on dwarf rootstock with tight spacing. I also assume (maybe incorrectly) that more root competition also makes for a less cold-hardy tree.
Very interesting to hear about the MM111 uniformity when planting close… seems the same principle of folks telling me I can use it in containers as well. Even more interesting to me is that you’re saying it fruited in the 2nd year. Is the MM111 staying similar sized into maturity, or just the first few years?
I’m also thinking of doing a Pear Cordon, and here the smallest reported rootstock that tends to do well (fireblight, drought, cold hardy) is OHxF 333. I’m concerned it may be too big to keep a 6-7’ oblique cordon. Same with B.10 for apple. Of course your M111 story does give me some greater hope it will self-manage via root competition.
However, if it doesn’t, do you have a sense of how flowering and fruit setting/production are affected (current and the next year) if the top foot or so of the leader is pruned back (both apple and pear)? I’m sure folks who espalier and cordon trees will have a good sense.
If I’m understanding correctly, you’re suggesting I stick with the 2’ interval… if so, that sounds good to me.
I’m really happy that you’ve taken the time to educate me on this. Thank you. I can easily see I would have made that mistake. It sounds like if I plant this spring, 2024, that I should plan to graft the 2nd variety in spring 2026. To clarify, are you saying I need to pinch back vegetative growth during the spring/summer of 2025, or does that start earlier?
Many thanks!
Yeap. That is why P.14 makes a great free standing orchard tree. But poor for high production, close spaced orchards. Grows like crazy vegetatively. A semi-dwarf with 30+CM trunks at 3 years. Big huge roots that makes it ok with light sandy soils.
I’d pay good money to see someone to cordon one. In the end it would be a screaming at the clouds type frustration exercise.
Wow!
I figure if I can get P.14 stooling, our local heat and sand will reign in some of it’s vigor
I had not planned on getting P.16 the next order. But I think I will chunk one of the Russian rootstocks off the list and ad it.
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In my experience, tree’s that are pruned to have small above ground mass also have lower rootmass than if they would be full size. This experience is mainly anecdotally when i helped move older tree’s and from my own observations on 1,2 and 3 year old tree’s. That i dug up.
The MM111 is definitely more vigorous than M27,P22 and M9,B9. But the difference is not as big as i initially expected. And a few more dwarfing rootstocks surpassed the MM111 tree’s in caliper. Although it’s not a good experiment since different scion varieties are grafted onto it. I was amazed at how fruitful the MM111’s where. And they are not the biggest in caliper, i suspect in part because they fruited the past 2 years. Their going into 4th leaf now, So ill have to wait and see. But i do expect them to become larger in the end though. Would not recommend them for cordons.
Planting close together and even planting some low perennial groundcover at the base of the cordons. Will infer some lowering of vigor. But i suspect there are limits. I would personally stick with the more dwarfing rootstocks. Just because than you would have to do less summer pruning to keep them in check.
I think cordon trained tree’s (unless their huge) will always be less drought resistant than a larger tree that’s less “trained” Pretty much regardless of rootstock used.
I would personally go for the more dwarfing B9. But i have no experience with B10, so if that once has obvious advantages you could do that one.
I think if your stuck on more vigerous rootstocks. It might be better to train them to an U form and than cordon. (2 + cordons per rootstock)
Or more like i plan to do. UFO style (cherry) https://www.canr.msu.edu/hrt/uploads/535/78639/PNW-667-Cherry-Training-Guide.pdf
page 50+
Or multi leader tree. (Alberto Dorigoni italy.)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348834643_Development_of_a_cultivation_system_for_multi-leader_trees
Or future orchard (Stuart Tustin. New Zealand)
Or google guyot training grape. they all have some similarities.
If seen older espaliers (from other people) that are a pain to maintain, and not as fruitful as you’d wish them to be. Because they are on to vigorous a rootstock. I’m grafting some new apple varieties this year and plan on growing them cordon style. But more to try out than to keep forever. But even those i graft on M27. Just because that will be less intensive to maintain.
If for whatever reason, you want to use more vigorous rootstocks. I would train multiple “leaders” or “cordons” per rootstock. This will manage the vigor in a lower effort way, than multiple summer prunings.
If you bench graft/plant spring 2024. The tree’s will grow a whip (single long branch) in spring/summer 2024. Depending on growing circumstances that can grow a bit or quite long. I would prune that whip back roughly 1/3 to 1/2. This wil force the buds on the remaining whip to grow side branches. The side branches that grow longer, you can pinch back spring/summer 2025. This will give you plenty of growing points for spurs to form in the future on the bottom part of the cordon. Than in winter/spring 2026 you graft your next variety. To continue the elongation for the cordon. This way you likely won’t have to notch as much or at all.
But this is from my personal growing conditions and vigor level on M9/B9. If you have lots of vigor due to growing conditions it might not be necessary. But i would compare it to spending 2years on the bottom tier of a horizontal espalier instead of 1. It will likely pay off in the end. But is not an absolute necessity, especially if your skilled and will compensate by skilled pruning /notching later on.
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This is just really awesome, Oscar. You’re imparting a lot of ideas and knowledge on me that will give me a better foundation for starting on the right foot!
That makes sense, and since this is more about fruit production in the near term, versus establishing a tree for many decades to come, I think that’s reasonable and can be countered with some watering. My gut says the reduction in roots will also affect the cold hardiness, but perhaps not as much as the drought element.
I assume you’re mainly referring to the U or alternate forms for the OHxF 333 for pears or semi-dwarf for apples, versus the Bud 10?
I have to look up the U form to envision it.
I’ve seen some of those other forms before, but never really stopped to think about them much, because I didn’t see this as a direction I was going and also didn’t realize some of the advantages.
I do have one area running E-W that gets S facing sun, and could work well with the taller forms you’ve suggested I check out (thanks for the links). I really have not started to check into the pear growing (it’s an early thought), however I know Quince has typically not done well here (and not sure of the smaller Quince editions). One thing I really liked about the oblique cordon is that it has the potential to reduce tree vigor through the angle planted and at the same time ‘consume’ some of the height, albeit, not as aesthetic. However, since pears like to go straight up, was trying to envision how the oblique cordon would work (though admittedly I have not looked into this yet). I suppose training on those may be more about letting it grow a foot or three, then bending to the prescribed 45 degree angle and tying.
All this makes a lot of sense, and I can see where you are coming from on going with the lowest vigor rootstock (B.9), unless there are significant advantages. I guess if B10 is noted as being higher vigor than B9, then it’s significant enough to make a difference.
On pear, assuming OHxF 333 is what I try, does going to 5-8 leaders, significantly reduce the tree’s desired height? I wasn’t sure if that would get it closer to the 6-7’, or if it only mildly tames it, as your point on summer pruning is notable. I guess a disadvantage of the multi-leader pruning over the oblique cordon is that the rootstock doesn’t see the same dwarfing that comes with the root competition of the cordons; however, I suppose the multi-leader is a similar offset.
These are some great concepts on growth you have shared.
This helps me have some sort of a plan. When you say “I would prune that whip back roughly 1/3 to 1/2” is that during the late winter pruning of 2025 or the late summer pruning of 2024? Just to make sure I understand correctly.
And when you say “pinch back”… you’re suggesting pruning back a side branch to the 3 buds or so length?
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I wonder if growing such small trees in such close proximity causes i higher frequency of fireblight strikes.
Does anyone here in fireblight prone areas have experience with diagonal cordons?
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No doubt, where I am at is amongst the top fireblight pressure locations here in the states. I chatted with a horticulture consultant who did grow a cordon for a client locally. He did raise the concern of fireblight and not having the flexibility of trimming back a larger limb and re-growing it as you would with the alternate trellis approach he was fond of. He just said that you need to be able to spot the fireblight early with regular checks and respond quickly, but did not mention a higher incidence of issues with the cordon. I think he would have said something if he thought it downright problematic, FWIW.
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Hey Dave, have a question for you. I assume with 24 trees you bench grafted them? If so, did you put them straight in the ground or did you end up growing them in containers for a year first?
I am trying to sort out how a freshly bench grafted union does being trained to the angle bit-by-bit, versus letting it go vertical in a container for a while before pitching at an angle.
Hey Ross, I did not bench graft them, I have no experience with bench grafting. I am actually going to try my hand at grafting for the first time this spring—we’ll see how it goes. But I would assume having it staked diagonally would help support the graft if it was planted out the first year. But I do not have any first hand experience with what you’re asking, so maybe not the best to assume anything.
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Same problem I have seen with dwarf trees IMO. Just not enough wood to give you any measure of comfort. My 4 in 1 Asian pear which is now a 2 in 1 that I’m trying to graft back to a 4 in 1.
Hi Ross… I haven’t checked in here for a bit and just saw that you linked my cordon project. I’ll post an update with some photos this weekend, but so far it is going well. Some varieties grew more strongly than others and two didn’t make it (Kidd’s orange red and Chestnut- one due to dog inflicted damage). It’s not far enough along for me to have super helpful information yet, but I can say that I’m enjoying the cordons after previously only growing free standing trees. More info to come as things progress, but happy to help any way I can.
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Glad to hear its going well, Philbert! Looking foward to your updates.