Which Cytology lab was used?
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Here’s an entire FB chat with Jerry.
I deliberately did not translate so as not to be accused of modifying the text. These are just screenshots.
The Caucasian diospyros is nothing more than a lotus diospyros. Perhaps he is tetraploid, which would explain the fertility after hybridization.
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These ploidy changes are frequent in nature (or artificially) and by hybridization we manage to have new species.
A strong braid (heat, cold…) can cause this, like radiation or chemicals.
Turning it down doesn’t show a great sign of intelligence.
@Harbin , you deny the existence of other F1 persimmon hybrids other than Rosseyanka (18). While in Ukraine they are recognized. I think in the past you would have been one of the people who thought the earth was flat… maybe you’re still the last to believe that our planet isn’t round!
You have to live with the times.
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I have examined (and tasted) the D. lotus specimens at the NCGR Davis repository. All of them were brought from eastern Europe, one in particular from the upper Alazani river valley in Georgia.
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While Animal hybrids are a finicky and fickle thing to achieve, plant hybrids are much easier (though with layers of complexity).
Assuming the gametes of both parents have properly reduced during meiosis, hybrid offspring end up with a midway point in the amount of chromosomes. Pair a hexaploid with a diploid, and you get a tetraploid. Pair a tetraploid with a diploid and you get a triploid. Even numbers tend to be fertile and fruitful, odd numbers tend to be sterile at lower levels, sometimes fertile at higher levels. Depending on the chromosomal math you’ll sometimes get aneuploids which are near a standard ploidy level, but with an extra chromosome or two (not enough to bring it up to the next level). When unreduced gametes are added into the mix, the offspring get higher ploidy levels than normal, sometimes higher than either parent.
This kinda stuff can be seen with strawberries. Fragaria x vescana is a cross between a tetraploid F. vesca and the octaploid F. x ananassa… with that ploidic math, hexaploids were expected, but it seems the octaploid parents didn’t reduce the gametes while the tetraploids did. So, unreduced octaploid gametes with reduced diploid gametes from the tetraploid parent makes for a decaploid plant. F. x vescana are decaploid hybrids. Meanwhile, “Florika x moschata” is more standard, with properly reduced gametes… a decaploid parent with a hexaploid parent, and we ended up with another octaploid strawberry.
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Back to Diospyros…
I grew Jackalberry a few years back. It was slow-growing in a pot. It died when I put it in the ground. Not sure what went wrong, though I later became aware that it likes acidic soil (if I remember correctly), though I don’t know if that was the issue.
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The problem of these hybridizations is multiple.
First of all the size of the pollen and the shape and size of the receptors. This is the first step before genetic problems.
But for those who recall children’s games where you have to put the square shapes in the square holes, the balls in the round shapes… we see that with a slight difference in size, our child managed to make a triangle fit into a square.
It is the same for pollen.
Then if the fertilization this product, and it is viable (because many seedlings will lack food reserves, others will be albino…etc).
The last step will be genetics. Because if a pair of chromosomes is missing, the hybrid will live but will be sterile. The doubling of the genetic material makes it possible to make the hybrids fertile. This is what has been done for cereals, for example Titical, but also for hybrid wheat, which today finds a number of chromosomes disproportionate to the original varieties.
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Hi @Richard, what did you think of the fruit you tasted? Also, how are your seedlings performing from the original post?
High in tannins, not worth growing for fruit. But as a rootstock …
Never sprouted.
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I remember Cliff at England’s Orchard and Nursery told me he had lotus fruit that tasted like “chocolate candies”. Maybe with his heat and humidity? My lotus always dies to the ground each winter.
It’s the cultivar. Check out the discussion above about those bred for rootstock vs those grown for fruit.
Cliff England told me several years ago he had 2 russian created lotus hybrids; ‘Dvorsky’ which has male flowers that bear fruit, and ‘Cavkas’. I don’t know what the other parent/s? is.
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Don Compton of Indiana, USA reportedly obtained a 120 chromosome, octaploid d.virginiana by treating with Orzalin and using a pressure chamber.
I had Kaukaz in my collection but it was worthless…just a pollinator. It is predominantly male but also sets a few female flowers. I do not believe that Kaukaz is a lotus/kaki hybrid. It looks 100% like pure kaki. No lotus features at all. I topgrafted the tree with another variety this spring.
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Mikatani,
Do you know of these? An acquaintance of mine in Krasnodar grows them among others.
Bozhiy Dar (God’s gift) is a monoecious hybrid. It has small fruit that ripens rather late and needs a lot of sun and heat to develop sugar. It will taste rather bland in a cool climate. I presume it is very hardy because it’s appearance is more towards American persimmon than Asian persimmon. I’m not a fan…
Hiratanenashi is one of the most famous and most planted Japanese persimmons. It has rather suarish fruit that can be extremely juicy. It is usually seedless because it is a triploïd variety although I do find the occasional seed in a fruit. It is one of the most hardy Asian persimmons but it needs a lot of heat hours and sun to develop sugar, otherwise it will taste rather bland and mealy, not juicy. There are a few early ripening mutations of the original Hiratanenashi. “Tone Wase” is the earliest one and it is widely grown for its early fruit also in commercialy:in Spain for example.
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Thanks! Sounds like they would be good here, LOTS of sun and heat all growing season!
The species is dioecious (individual flowers are either male or female, but only one sex is to be found on any one plant so both male and female plants must be grown if seed is required). . The plant is not self-fertile.
@Richard Are you familiar with the pollination of these things?
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Without knowledge specifically of this species, I THINK it’s similar to D virginiana where a tree can throw male and female flowers but it’s generally understood that that tree won’t pollinate itself to make viable seed, but could pollinate another? Someone correct me if I’m wrong…
It looks like there are male and female trees, but both throw male and female flowers. I was reading that both fruit, but the female trees produce superior fruit to the male tress. But I could have misunderstood.