Do all the problems we have with apples stem from messing with nature?

Zone6 · September 7, 2025, 12:21pm

If I knew I’d have all the problems I do with regular apples I would have looked into crabapples years ago. Over the last 17 years I’ve tried about 20 varieties of apples and the results are all the same. These apple trees are sickly as hell in Z6 with no spraying. Most of them anyway. Or they just don’t produce if they do grow up to be a big, sick tree. I don’t care that much if the apple is small. As long as it is about 2 inch and taste good it is fine for me. But the tree has to produce something edible and somewhat regularly.

Here is a supposedly disease resistant apple, Liberty. I think it is grown in the Carolina’s.

This is the same tree a few months after it was planted in the Rustbelt. Loaded with disease and didn’t produce 1 apple.

I asked AI how crabapples fit in with regular apples. This is what they said.

The apples we eat today did evolve from wild crabapples through millennia of selective breeding. The domesticated apple, Malus domestica, originated from the wild Asian crabapple *[Malus sieversii], which was first domesticated in Central Asia between 4,000 and 10,000 years ago. Over time, early humans selected for larger, sweeter, and more palatable fruit, leading to the modern edible apple we know.

The Process of Domestication

Wild Ancestor: The original domesticated apple is Malus sieversii, a type of wild apple (crabapple) found in the [Tien Shan mountains](Google?
Selective Breeding: Early farmers and orchard owners began cultivating these wild crabapples. They would select seeds from trees that produced larger, sweeter fruits, or fruits with other desirable qualities.
Gradual Transformation: Through these repeated cycles of selective breeding, the wild crabapple gradually changed, becoming the larger, less sour, and more palatable apple we eat today.
Further Crossbreeding: Subsequent crosses and hybridization with other wild crabapple species, such as European crabapples, also contributed to the modern apple’s genetic makeup, providing traits like disease resistance and hardiness.

Crabapples Today

Today, all cultivated apples and crabapples belong to the genus
*Malus.
The key difference is the size of the fruit; cultivated apples are the large, sweet fruits, while crabapples are the smaller, more tart varieties.
Many wild crabapple species still exist, and they continue to contribute to the genetic diversity of apples.

Phlogopite · September 7, 2025, 12:35pm

Yes we’ve brought the pests and diseases that affect apples from the Old World and we have all the pests and diseases of the New World

But there are lots of apples that produce great fruit with a commerical spray program that gets sold to backyard growers who don’t intend to spray anything, that’s just not the right apple for the application

The term crabapple is confusing, AI got it wrong.

Pomologists often use the term “crabapple” to mean a true regular apple that is just 2" in diameter or less, those are the apples we are talking about in the other thread.
They may have some genes from wild apples incorporated into them but they look and taste like regular apples, just smaller

These are quite different from the only crabapples I knew about previous and what AI was talking about: different apple species that often have pink flowers and are often grown ornamentally with small red fruits only suitable for jelly, if that

dannytoro1 · September 7, 2025, 1:38pm

If you want regular fruit production; you have to spray. Even “organic fruit” uses spraying.

Me? I take the mostly organic path. With an occasional use of the good spray when needed. Like I have zero quams spraying a light dose application of Daconil on young non-fruiting trees. It sure wiped out fungal issues in their tracks this year.

Phlogopite · September 7, 2025, 2:25pm

It depends on your location of course. In the limestone hills of upstate NY Z5b where I’m from the pastures are covered with hundreds of wild apples trees, you’d think that would only make the pest and disease pressure higher right?
Nope, every single year (barring an extremely late frost that happens every ~10 years) the majority of the trees produce apples good enough for home eating and use, if not pretty enough to sell (though many are pretty enough to sell).
And every year my family and their neighbors go out on all manner of off-road vehicles towing whatever they can and testing apples off of each loaded tree finding ones good for cider. The trailers get loaded up, cider is pressed, and a good time is had by all
And the modern disease resistant apples everyone I’ve talked to in the area has grown, in a backyard context, are trouble free.
Even varieties I would never recommend because they are too disease susceptible in my mind (like Cortland or Jonagold) produce like gangbusters for people who barely even prune (mostly on a biennial basis but still)
This is, I think, principally due to the 1. Dolomitic limestone clay and glacial till soil where they get plenty of Ca, Mg, and B
And 2. The slopes of the hills providing good airflow and air drainage

ribs1 · September 7, 2025, 3:06pm

That liberty apple tree is not old enough to produce any apples.
You can easily make it look much better by pruning, mulching and watering.
make sure your soil is sufficient.

Richard · September 7, 2025, 3:27pm

Curiously, I’ve no need to spray my apples here – except for aphids in mid-summer.

dannytoro1 · September 7, 2025, 3:39pm

Location, location…lol

disc4tw · September 7, 2025, 3:56pm

I’ll pose a hypothesis here- Through the process of domestication by humans, many many animals and plants have lost the ability to survive without human influence in the natural environment.

Dogs, cats, cows, night shades, brassicas, malus, prunus… Almost all wild relatives have better survivability than their domestic counterparts without our help.

Even my ‘no work’ jujubes don’t have the thorns to protect themselves like their native counterparts.

There is a reason we domesticated these things, to provide for an ever growing population and work less for more food. It does come with a cost, part of the baseline argument for why modern agriculture has ‘enslaved’ us to the land we grow on, rather than taking a foraging approach for success. I don’t necessarily agree with that thought process, by the way, but it helps explain where I was going.

alan · September 7, 2025, 4:46pm

I don’t see how that’s different from what Z quoted. It seemed like you repeated the information in different words to me… did I miss something?

It isn’t complicated, crab apples are small apples… however, there are crabapples that look, as trees, quite different than domesticated apples, even if they are very much the same species. I’m talking about wild things that grow around here that are sometimes called thorn-apples. They often have lots of thorns (even on mature trees) and rougher looking bark than the ones we grow for fruit. I’ve been at sites where there are hundreds of the things with a wide range of apples on them… some would just be called bad seedling apples because the fruit sucks even if it has decent size.

I think one thing that Z should know is that perhaps most of the good tasting crabs are as pest susceptible as larger fruiting apples- perhaps he should try Clark’s crab, touted as being a very tasty spray free fruit as growing in KS. .

And yes, the agricultural and now industrial revolution is a “messing with nature” process. I figure nature despises a species monopoly of so many of this planet’s resources, but I haven’t actually managed an interview.

alan · September 7, 2025, 4:51pm

Don’t worry, synthetic food is on the way Meantime, most of us don’t even grow our own food and most of the slave work is done by machines these days. Except maybe for organic production, that seems to require a lot of grueling effort pulling weeds close to plants. Grueling when it’s done commercially.

Richard · September 7, 2025, 5:59pm

The question is ill-posed, containing two false assumptions plus an ambiguous reference to “nature”.

Predictably, the AI responses contain errors.

Humorously, apples do have stems .

dannytoro1 · September 7, 2025, 6:46pm

I note Cripps Pink seems to be fruiting well here. It has weathered 2 tough seasons here. And apart from light leaf loss; enjoys fruiting in a hostile to apple tree place.

My only regret was not knowing of the better colored “Rosy Glow” mutation of a hot pink shade. No fears; I am getting it next season.

alan · September 7, 2025, 7:06pm

To get valid info, these advanced search engines require the effort to do a thorough interrogation of them- for many professions, you reject this tool at your own peril. The thing is that language is extremely nuanced and much of the info AI works with is expressed in words that can easily be misinterpreted. My son embraces AI as a computer engineer and makes triple the salary as my nephew, who is an engineer who rejects it, not that it proves anything by itself but my son is convinced that his special ability to use this tool affectively has vastly accelerated the trajectory of his career and has increased his productivity 2-fold in a field where accuracy is essential.- mistakes and delays can cost the company millions.

I don’t know why anyone would use anything else to search research based information. One should always follow the search right through the research if accuracy is crucial.

But what inaccurate into did AI provide in this case. I’m not going to bother to double check it myself, but clearly a request for sources of info was not made with the only source listed being google. .

How about this:

give me brief history of the domestication of the apple with sources

Do it without leaning on Wikipedia as a source- many don’t trust it.

ChatGPT said:

Here’s a refined, trustworthy overview of the domestication of the apple, drawn solely from scholarly and reputable sources—no Wikipedia content used.

1. Origins in Central Asia

The domestic apple (Malus domestica) is descended primarily from the wild species Malus sieversii, native to the Tian Shan mountains of Central Asia, especially Kazakhstan. This ancestor contributes nearly half of the cultivated apple’s genome.PMC Nature ResearchGate
Russian botanist and plant geographer Nikolai Vavilov first proposed M. sieversii as the ancestral progenitor in 1929; subsequent DNA studies throughout the 21st century have confirmed this.The Orchard Project

2. Genetic Diversification Through Hybridization

After its initial domestication, cultivated apples underwent significant genetic mixing—particularly (1) with the European crabapple M. sylvestris, and (2) through the spread of domesticated varieties along the Silk Road.Nature Frontiers ScienceDirect
Genomic analyses reveal that about 46% of the global cultivated apple genome comes from M. sieversii, about 21% from M. sylvestris, and the rest is uncertain.Nature
This hybridization was likely central to the rapid emergence of large-fruited apples, distinguishing them from their small, tart wild ancestors.Frontiers

3. Rapid Domestication—Driven by Hybrid Vigor

Unlike many annual crops, tree species like apples didn’t follow a gradual domestication path. Instead, hybrid vigor (heterosis) and gene flow played dominant roles. Large fruits likely evolved to attract megafaunal seed dispersers even before human involvement, and were subsequently selected and stabilized via human cultivation techniques like grafting.Frontiers
Evidence suggests domestication may have occurred over fewer than 100 generations—a relatively fast process.PMC

4. Phenotypic Changes: Size, Taste, and Maturity

Over time, cultivated apples diverged notably from their wild predecessors:
- 3.6 times heavier
- 43% less acidic
- 68% lower in phenolic compounds (which influence bitterness and astringency)PLOS
They also developed shorter juvenile (pre-fruiting) phases and delayed flowering—a trend further shaped by selective breeding over the past 200 years.PLOS

5. Summary Timeline of Domestication

Period/Event	Key Developments
~4,000–10,000 years ago (Central Asia)	Initial domestication from M. sieversii.ThoughtCo PMC
Silk Road era	Domesticated apples spread westward; hybridized with wild species like M. sylvestris.Nature Frontiers
Rapid domestication phase	Quick selection of large fruits; possible megafaunal seed dispersal influence.Frontiers PMC
Modern breeding (recent centuries)	Dramatic phenotypic changes—larger, sweeter, less acidic apples under short juvenile phase.PLOS

Special points for any misinformation anyone finds in this.

alan · September 7, 2025, 7:18pm

And here is what I mean by interrogation.

I find it difficult to believe that the wild apples in central Asia were all tart. I’m under the impression that this species produces a very wide range of characteristics from seedling trees, which is what makes it so transformable via breeding.

ChatGPT said:

You are right to be skeptical — the idea that wild Malus sieversii was “all tart” is a simplification that doesn’t hold up against the field evidence. The reality is closer to what you’ve described: M. sieversii is an extraordinarily variable species, with fruit ranging from highly astringent and small to large, sweet, and juicy — even approaching the quality of cultivated apples.

Here’s what the research and exploration reports show:

1. Genetic and Phenotypic Diversity

Modern genomic studies confirm M. sieversii has the broadest genetic diversity of any Malus species, which is why it became the primary progenitor of domesticated apples (Cornille et al. 2012, PNAS ).
This diversity is expressed in fruit traits:
- Size: tiny crab-like apples up to fruits as large as commercial apples.
- Flavor: ranging from sour and bitter to sweet dessert quality.
- Flesh texture: crisp to mealy.
- Skin color: yellow, green, red, or bi-colored.

2. Observations from Kazakhstan

Frank Meyer, the USDA plant explorer, noted in 1905–1906 that wild apple forests in Kazakhstan produced “many trees with fruits equal to our cultivated apples, and some superior in flavor” (Meyer, USDA Plant Inventory, 1908).
More recent surveys in Kazakhstan confirm that sweet-fruited seedlings are common in natural stands. Henk Schouten and colleagues (Wageningen Univ.) reported that some M. sieversii trees bear fruit indistinguishable from commercial dessert apples.

3. Ecological Explanation

Unlike European crabapple (M. sylvestris), which tends toward small, acidic fruit, M. sieversii likely maintained large, palatable fruit because of megafaunal dispersal pressure. Large animals (bears, wild horses, deer, possibly extinct megafauna) would have been effective dispersers of large, sweet fruit. This ecological factor explains why domestication could build quickly on naturally sweet, large-fruited individuals rather than starting from sour crabs (Cornille et al. 2014, Frontiers in Plant Science ).

4. Why the “tart ancestor” myth persists

Early European botanists were more familiar with M. sylvestris (small, sharp crabapples) and generalized that model backwards.
Many M. sieversii groves do have bitter/astringent trees — which are highly noticeable to tasters, and thus got more attention.
But the true picture is a spectrum, with some wild trees producing fruit very close to modern cultivars without any breeding.

So you’re right: M. sieversii was not uniformly tart. Its immense variability is exactly what made apples so transformable by human hands — grafting allowed people to capture and perpetuate the occasional seedling with dessert-quality fruit, and over time those selections became the backbone of cultivated apple diversity.

Yeah, CHAT GPT is a very cool tool IMO- imperfect but perfectly awesome

BobVance · September 7, 2025, 7:43pm

I don’t know how well supported it is, but I remember hearing that bears were responsible for the selection of early apples in Kazakhstan.

I’ve been growing several Kaz apples (brought back from the forests of Kazakhstan by researchers), but haven’t found any I thought were great. Though I haven’t kept great track of them (jujubes took the spot apples had in my heart), so I’ve lost many of the grafts. Here’s one I sampled this year.

Back when I didn’t spray much at all, I didn’t notice the Kaz apples being any better about PC. Insects went for them, just like “normal” apples.

He’s the same guy who brought many early jujube varieties to the US from China.

a_Vivaldi · September 8, 2025, 3:33pm

I’d reckon there are two distinct issues that make apples such pest-afflicted plants.

Apples have had a long history of cultivation where both 1. selective breeding that’s pushed them more and more towards production and fruit quality, likely losing pest resistance along the way 2. growing them well outside the soil and climate conditions they prefer contribute to them being vulnerable to pests.
All these cultivated apples have provided a huge host population for any potential pests, and since 1. apples have hundreds of close relatives which in turn have thousands of different pest species, each one of which wouldn’t have far to go, evolutionarily, to prey on apples, and 2. apple cultivation has gone on for an extremely long time and on almost every continent, so there’s been ample opportunity for pests to show up.

Personally, while the first one gets most of the blame, I’d say the second one is the bigger problem and the main driver. Look at native crab apples that have never seen any human breeding and that are growing in their native, natural environments, they’re almost always all covered with pests and suffer diseases like crazy. There are just so, so many apple diseases and pests out there, most of which probably didn’t exist 20,000 years ago, that apple species, even in their natural conditions, are going to struggle most of the time. Thousands of years of cultivation have given enough time and opportunity for x insects from hawthorns in the US, y fungus from pears in China, and z bacterial scorch from whitebeams in Europe, etc. to all thrive on apples and spread around the world, and in some cases first make the evolutionary jump to being able to attack apples in the first place.

Which is a bit sobering, because it means there’s no way back. Natural, native apples aren’t going to be much better, because it’s not like they ever evolved resistance to apples maggots or whatever in the first place (domestic apples’ ancestors evolved in Kazakhstan, apple maggots evolved in the eastern US, so there’s no reason why any of the wild ancestors of apples would have resistance t o apple maggots, for example). All we can do is keep breeding, but this time select for better disease resistance and novel genes that help with these novel pests and diseases. Older varieties are useful breeding stock, since they have a lot of genetic variability and were already bred, by folks a hundred or a few hundred years ago, to have some resistance to the new diseases of their day, but just relying on those varieties is a dead-end.

It’ll probably take combining a really wide set of genetics, likely from both various old varieties of apples and various wild apples and apples relatives, to actually get real disease and pest resistance into apples. And that breeding work is constant battle, because new pests and disease and new strains of pests and diseases will always be showing up so long as apples remain in cultivation or in the wild.

Maybe if apple growing had always been restricted to just a few mountains in Kazakhstan, and no improvements in flavor, texture, and productivity had ever been bred into apples, we wouldn’t have the disease and pest problems we have now. But which is worse, a world with no apple pests or diseases but just a handful of apple orchards in Kazakhstan and nowhere else, or a world where we “messed with nature” and now we have an abundance of apples everywhere, but also apple pests and diseases? Personally, I’ll take the world where we messed with nature, because that’s the only world in which I get to eat apples.

jcf · September 8, 2025, 8:38pm

As far as what i have learned, as a farmer, its all about growing what grows well at your location. This is one of the key elements of being sustainable. If your constantly having to battle pests and diseases by chemical or non chemical inputs then your growing the wrong thing.
As example i farm in the upper Skagit Valley in Western Washington. The valley is reputed to be in the top 2% of productive soils of all river valleys in the world. Only behind the Nile and fertile crescent valleys. But the area where my farm is located is far up valley and doesnt benefit from those rich soils. I say benefit but really what experience has shown me is that i am actually benefiting from being able to grow many things here that cant be grown as well lower in the “better” farm land.
The heavier loamy soils, built up by centuries of flood deposts, found in the lower valley are great for vegetable production. Not so great for tree fruit. Unfortunately this was not information that could be provided to me when i took up farming, i just got lucky with my location.
Although i was certified organic for 13 years i am not against using non organic sprays when needed. I do have a list of other options to use first however.
First on the list, as stated earlier, would be to eliminate the problem altogether by not growing such a problematic crop or variety. I removed so many really great varieties from my orchards that i would love to still be growing but to do so is just not responsible.
For CAR, asiaticuum
Hamese
Yoinashi
For apple anthracnose
Gingergold
Empire
Discovery
Gala
Cox Orange P.
Most all Cox crosses

So apples are a good example of a crop i can grow here in a responible manner.
Peaches, in the distant past, have been just the opposite. For the first 15 years i tried growing peaches i got almost 0 results with the exception of Frost which would always give at least a few peaches even in the worst spring.
Then, climate change being what it is, the peach season really started warming and drying out. This became noticeable around 13 years ago.
I had almost given up on peaches but am very glad i didnt.
I dont spray my peaches except for PLC of course and in my early peach years i could have sprayed the heck out of them to combat the many fungal and bacterial problems we get here in a wet cool spring which are why i wasnt getting any fruit but, again that goes against my philosophy.

dannytoro1 · September 8, 2025, 8:49pm

Part of our ethos here is “We kill Apple trees so you do not have too”. The end goal being getting about 75 types that perform well in Apple Hades.

jcf · September 8, 2025, 8:56pm

mmm, i get it now.

murky · September 8, 2025, 8:58pm

I can only imagine. Nice.